A Few Months Later: Stack and Tilt
Posted August 1st, 2007 by Erik J. Barzeski
Stack and Tilt: a fad or a little bit closer to a universal golf truth? We'd like your feedback.
Three simple words - Stack and Tilt - have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It's the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It's the move that's led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It's a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It's also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible "traditional swing" pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. "Only a big duffer swings like that!" I thought to myself. I also thought "if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it."
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan's Five Lessons? They don't come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I've developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I've given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I've adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I've adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don't have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don't crush any cans, I don't "pop up," and I don't feel as though I'm leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don't want to get away from the central question: If you've taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How's your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?
TomPosted 22 Aug 2008 at 6:46am #
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i'm hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
-->Richard HPosted 26 Aug 2008 (5 weeks ago) at 8:53pm #
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90's but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR's and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can't wait until Thursday to play again.
-->TomPosted 28 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 4:05pm #
Bill said on August 20, 2008:
I'm a 7 index and I got the DVD's and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
I'm sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !Tom
-->TMPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 12:52pm #
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I've ever seen. Don't get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I'm no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn't apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don't* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don't want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
-->Guy CammorataPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:32pm #
The dvd's are returnable
-->Brian WillsPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:34pm #
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
-->TomPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 6:29am #
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
-->BobPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:19am #
I am in my early 60's. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it's an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives - mostly straight or with a little draw - are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn't getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I'm not a teacher so I can't explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I'd be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
-->RookatPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:58am #
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says "are you still doin Andy Brown"? Usually I'm expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
-->hanonPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:51pm #
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book "Four magic Moves to Winning Golf" (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on "controlled" weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXNglCDcz4
-->JimPosted 04 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 9:32am #
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
-->PerrenPosted 05 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 4:54pm #
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I've seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I've always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high - I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades - I just couldn't get "down" into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a "popping" of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center - not one "miss hit" on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors!
-->EdPosted 08 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 12:56pm #
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you're having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I'm hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have -- beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin -- and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can't use the "textbook" Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep -- and it's not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I'm enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys -- is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball -- and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt...
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Monday, September 22, 2008
What do people think about the stack and tilt swing
Pete said:
I have always been a decent golfer, but struggled with a slice most of the time and could never really trust my swing. I’m tall and had a problem getting my weight on my left side during the swing follow-thru. Anyway, read about the S&T swing in golf digest, also viewed some Utube swing sequences of Aaron Baddeley and thought I’d give it a try. I just practiced going thru the motions and swinging without any ball and feels like I’m taking a 3/4 swing.For me the swing has worked out perfect. Now I’m getting thru the swing with my weight on my left side which gives my ball flight a lower and penetrating draw. In 2007 I was able to shoot my best score ever, a 60 and it seemed so effortless. It has improved my whole game and I would recommend this new S&T swing to anyone.
A comment on the WGC-Match Play Championship.Aaron Baddeley matched Tiger Woods shot for shot and had upset in his grasp had he been able to sink a putt. I think Baddeley will keep getting better and be a real threat to Tiger, given more time to fully master this unique swing.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
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Patrick said:
Pete,
Just read your post and my question is, what were you shooting before that 60? If you were anywhere close to that type of number I’m surprised you would have tinkered with such a radical swing change like the S&T. Anyway, congratulations!!!
I am still at the neophyte stage of this swing. Just played my third round of the year and am feeling more confident with it. Two things I am noticing that seem to contradict many others’experience are my distance and ball flight. I am hitting it farther than ever (coming up on my 48th b-day) and higher than ever.This swing seems to allow me to manipulate the clubface more than ever which may explain both. One thing I do seem to have in common is my back doesn’t ache after a round like it used to. A work in progress.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
I continue to be amazed. Thanks for sharing the experiences, guys.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
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Pete said:
My scoring average up to the middle of 2007 was 75 before the S&T swing change. I just could never trust the old traditional swing and that was always was in the back of my mind.
This new ball flight for me is lower and longer with a slight draw. I’m swinging a standard length stiff shaft driver with an 8.5 face. I also have a 9.5 driver for a somewhat higher trajectory. My long irons are crisper with a more boring trajectory, short irons are tight. I’m telling you, this swing has changed my game around, I just can’t believe it happened so quickly.
I love watching Baddeley’s swing in slo-mo and how he pinches the ball.Hey, I’ve only been at this for a year and believe there another 60 in me…somewhere?Just remember to crush the can!
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
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Patrick said:
I can tell I’m new to this swing because I had already forgotten the crucial element of “crushing the can”. So thanks for the reminder. I took that thought to the range today and hit six iron after six iron about 190 yds(I’m at elevation)and I swear they all landed within five feet from each other with perfect trajectory. I love the balance and on top of the ball feeling.
I totally agree about Baddely’s move. It looks effortless, but not in a Couples or Els kind of way. He will win a major soon.
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Pete said:
I will be watching to see how well the pro stack & tilters do this week at the Doral Tournament.
Here’s another swing thought to help master this swing. If your right handed keep your right elbow close to your side on the back & down swing. The right hand and shoulder start down together, caused by the crush the can move. Watch the rear view of Aaron Baddeleys swing on Utube bizhub from the start of the downswing. Centrifigal force takes over to complete the swing. That’s it, just a simple move.
To me Baddeley’s swing tempo seems quicker but more efficient with the shorter backswing, than Els or Couples. Also, I think your right, the S&T is much easier on the back.
Posted on March 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just started experimenting with the S & T and found your website invaluable.
My question revolves around the “crush the can” concept. The photos in the GD article show the ball of the foot crushing down on the can. Yet in the actual swing your left heel is off the ground. Am I missing something?
How about another image or thought for the transition to get the hips moving forward and to stand up straight at impact.
Thanks.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
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Double Eagle said:
Hi Ranger. Glad you found the website useful.
Regarding the issue about crushing the can, if you’re right-handed, your left heel shouldn’t be off the ground once the downswing starts. I think it’s probably OK if it comes up a little bit in the back swing. Once the down swing starts, though, it should be planted flat on the ground.
The feeling I had when I was trying out the swing was that of stomping my foot in to the turf (not lifting it up and then stomping, but just as if I was trying to push my foot down into into the turf).
Have a look at the images of Aaron Baddeley from the original article here. You can see that as the downswing starts, his left knee is flexed, but his foot is flat on the ground. As the swing progresses, his left leg straightens quickly and his hips thrust upward and become level. In all three images there, you can see his left foot squarely on the turf.
An alternative mental image you can use is quickly straightening your left leg as you swing down through the ball (while making sure to thrust your pelvis upward).
I hope that helps. Feel free to stop back and let everyone know how you make out.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
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Patrick said:
I took the S&T to the University of New Mexico Championship Course yesterday (host of this years NCAA Women’s championship in May). They have it in unbelievably good shape and with a 20 m.p.h wind it had teeth. Since I seem to be so early on in my S&T development, I find early in rounds I have trouble trusting this new swing and consequently don’t execute it as described. But after about three holes I start doing it correctly and the results are so good that I only wish I’d known of it twenty years ago. The “rotational” feel of the swing is becoming ingrained and it appears to produce really good club-head speed. Currently my thougt is centered on the pelvic thrust aspect on the through swing. Another big test comes Saturday at Pa-Ko Ridge.
Posted on March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
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Pete said:
On the weight shift and crush the can move. In my swing it feels like the weight goes to the right heel on the back swing. On the forward swing the weight goes to the left heel. It’s a very simple swing, with no lifting of the foot until after the ball is hit.
Posted on March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just returned from a four day trip to Florida where I was able to put the S & T into operational mode.
The results were far better than I had hoped for. I have always been a straight hitter off the tee. Not long but I hit about 70% of my fairways. My problem is that I hit only 40% of the greens. Through a lot of work with my short game I have been able to lower my hndcp to a 5.
My normal swing is laid off resulting in a lot of missed greens left or weak right. I am able to hit a lot of fairways because I use my hands to get the club square at impact.
The S & T has allowed me to finally hit my irons with authority. The first day out I hit over 55% of the greens and shot a 77.
Similar results the next two rounds. My driver and fairway woods remain about the same but clearly my iron play is where I needed improvement.
On my last day I ended up losing the swing a bit. Unless you are a pro, after four straight rounds the swing begins to fray at the edges. I began missing my irons left and then compensated by blocking them right.
When I got home I re-read your site and the Golf Digest articles and quickly realized that I was not straightening out my right leg and was thereby just whipping the club around waist thus leading to hooks or blocks.
Still working on the concept of “crushing the can” but your suggestion about straightening the left leg quickly makes sense.My only problem is I feel that I am already on my left side so how would I push down on the can. Again, maybe you can help me through that process.
I have never been more encouraged about starting the golf season than I am now. I intend to really commit to the S & T for the next month to see if it can continue to improve my iron play.
Your site has been very helpful.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Nice to see you making real progress, Ranger. I’m glad I’ve been able to help in a small way.
As far as the left leg and “can crushing” move, I think the following section of the Golf Digest article is key for you. I know you’ve read it multiple times, but it’s worth keeping in mind:
——-“The turning body is supplying the initial acceleration, so the player must maximize rotational speed. The hips have limited turning capacity when they’re tilted, so they have to come out of their tilt to keep accelerating. The move that releases the hips is a springing up of the lower body, where the butt muscles push the hips upward and toward the target. The player has to feel as if he’s jumping up as the club comes down.
As you start down, imagine you’re crushing a soda can under your left foot. The body has stayed centered on the backswing, so there’s no need to shift back to the ball. This downward pressure on the left foot sets up the upward thrust of the hips through impact.”——-
The part in bold is important. The left leg straightening (or “can crushing” move) is a function of that springing up movement. That’s another great bit of imagery that you can use. You’re not just pressing your foot into the turf for the sake of doing that, you’re doing that so you can engage your butt muscles and propel your hips upward.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
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David said:
Hi guys,
I was an early poster on your first post about S+T ( just after I had my first ever hole in one I think ) so just thought I’d let you know I still find it so easy to swing this way. Sunday I was only able to play 11 holes, very cold, course soaking wet after a downpour so absolutely not an inch of run even on full drives. Hit 8 greens of the first 9 in regulation ! Failed to hole a single birdie putt to the relief of my palying partners ( costs them 2 Euros per birdie ) but that’s another story. S+T still rocks !
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Thanks for giving us an update, David. It’s great to hear from more and more people who have tried the swing for some time and continue to have improved ball striking and consistency.
Now, you just need to get your putting in order to convert some of those birdie chances. At 2 Euro each, you’re going to be making some nice money from your partners.
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
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Bob said:
I have been working at this and have a couple of problems. One is the misses generally go left, I believe this may be caused by not being able to shorten the swing enough. The other is this swing seems to bother my left knee on occassion. Any advice?Thanks,Bob
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Bob, I don’t have any definitive advice to give you, so hopefully some of the other readers will be able to offer some thoughts.
One thing that does come to mind with respect to the knee pain is perhaps a flexibility issue. How is your flexibility in your back and hips? Maybe some tightness is causing a little extra torque on your knee? If you think that might be the culprit, it may help to do some stretching to target those areas. In my sidebar, there are links to the Titleist Performance Institute, Mike Pedersen Golf, and Better Golf With Fitness, all great resources on golf fitness where you can find tons of stretches and exercises to target those areas.
Hopefully someone out there has experience with shots missing left that can offer you some advice. Though, if you do have flexibility issues, that could cause a lot of problems.
All this is speculation, of course, since I haven’t seen your swing. Feel free to go into more detail about your swing and flexibility if you’d like and maybe someone will have some ideas.
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
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Joseph said:
Bob,my left knee bothers me too when I find that it caves in towards the ball on the backswing. If you have the same issue, try flaring your front foot more towards the target at setup. This will fold your front leg and point your knee more on a downward angle rather than towards the ball.
If you notice the pics in the Golf Digest’s article, you will see P&B have a flared foot and the knee is not caved in on their backswing.
Just a thought…
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
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Joseph said:
Bob,One more thought…
Pulling left? For me, I pull left on occasion because my rear shoulder tends to cheat and moves a little forward at setup because I put more weight on the front.
Be sure you are “stacked” over the ball and shoulders squared at setup.
Aloha
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
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Double Eagle said:
Great thoughts, Joseph. Thanks for sharing them.
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
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Joseph said:
Stack and Tilt has a new instructional DVD from P&B. Anyone have feedback on this? I am thinking of purchasing…
thanks
http://www.stackgolf.com/land01.php?sid=51985
Posted on May 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
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hanon said:
Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver:Click here.
Posted on June 5th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I am a 66 year old 8 handicap golfer that changes swing thoughts as often as some people change their underwear. I am tired of that and think I have found what I need with the S&T.
Golf lesson videos through the years show that I have two big swing faults. I raise my head on the backswing and left my hips sway towards the target on the downswing. The S&T easily corrects the head coming up since I feel like my head lowers towards the my left foot on the backswing and the shifting of my left hip towards the target is part of the S&T.
I would like to get a little more distance off the tee with the S&T. (looks like it goes farther when you see it in the air). Maybe when I get my DVD’s that I ordered it will give me some ideas on getting the ball out there a little farther.
The only other problem I encounter on an ongoing basis is trying to hit a 3 wood off the grass. Too often it pops up to the right.
I have also noticed that one cannot get lazy or worn out as the round goes on because if you don’t get those hips thrusted properly and with energy you will leave the shot out to the right.
But overall; I like the fact that I can take this swing to the course and it holds up better under pressure. I think it is because I only need to think about proper body movements and my arms and hands are just along for the ride.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting thoughts, Jim. Thanks for sharing them.
You’re definitely right about getting worn out during a round. With the S&T, I can see it getting worse because of the necessity of a good pelvic thrust. Fatigue certainly hurts players with conventional swings, but I can see the problem with S&T. All the more reason for all of us to get in shape and stay that way!
After you get the S&T DVDs and have a chance to watch them, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. There’s a lot of interest in the swing and players would love to know about them.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 am
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MIKE said:
Great resource. I had never even heard of the stack and tilt until a guy at the golf course asked me how long I had been doing it. I’ve had a lot of swing instruction in conventional swing hooked up to wires and vests, trying to get all the angles to match up with the pros and after a few lessons I would play pretty good until the wheels came off and I wouldn’t be able to hit the ball at all. My “default” swing that I would switch to, was one where my only thought was to stay on my left leg. I tend to get overactive in the lower body and have to flip at the ball to even get the clubhead on the ball. This “dead leg” swing as I think of it ensures consistent contact.
I’m not sure that I am doing everything as advocated by the stack and tilt, but what a relief to find out that what I do naturally is not necessarily a give up swing, but might be a valid way to hit the ball.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
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Double Eagle said:
Jim, glad to see you’re making serious improvement. I can’t wait to hear how the other DVDs are.
Mike, it’s very interesting to hear how you developed a natural stack and tilt. The human body is a wonderful thing. When given a repetitive task, it seems to find interesting ways to accomplish it efficiently. It’s as if you gave your body one parameter - the “dead left leg” and it figured out the rest intuitively over time.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
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MIKE said:
I played a lot of baseball, and I find it interesting to see the baseball swing used as an example of why the stack and tilt is NOT a good swing by some commenters saying that you wouldn’t hit a baseball without a weight transfer. In fact, I was taught to hit to contact off the lead leg with the trail leg almost completely un-weighted when the the swing happens. I find the concept of stack and tilt to be very baseball swing like.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting comparison to baseball, Mike. I haven’t given it much thought, having not played baseball since little league, but I think I understand what you mean. There is definitely something to the rotational power that the stack and tilt and other swings of that type can provide.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I reviewed the last two DVD’s today and all I can say is “Whew”. I am on sensory overload right now. The “in depth” DVD is just that. It goes into what the hips, legs, arms, hands and shaft do in the S&T system.
I initially liked the S&T because it seemed simple for me to replicate. From reading the articles in Golf Digest I thought that as long as I got the body movements right the arms and hands just came along automatically for the ride. That is true to some extent for the basic movements and one could expect probably play ok with just that knowledge. But in my opinion if you wanted to get into the low single digits than the “in depth DVD” becomes important.
A couple of suprises on that DVD are as follows. No where do they talk about the downswing beginning by pushing down on the right heel and then thrusting up the pelvis. They discuss the importance of pushing the hips continually left (not suddenly) on the downswing and at the same time pushing the hands away from the right shoulder. One of my swing faults is letting my head fall back to the right on my downswing. They advised that is caused by not letting the hands move away from the right shoulder on the downswing as the hips move left. Which, I guess, is why I tend to push many of my shots to the right with the S&T.
I am disappointed that there wasn’t a section on drills to work on the individual components of the S&T. I thought I saw in their literature that it came on the DVD’s.
All in all, I am glad to know more about the S&T and should slowly get better as Iwork on the various components.
If anyone has any questions; I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
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Double Eagle said:
FYI to everyone - I received a press release from Medicus Golf about the widespread release of the Stack and Tilt DVD set. Apparently, it was in limited release before. I wrote a post about it here.
I expect to do a review on the DVD set myself in the near future. In the meantime, anyone who has seen it is welcome to comment as Jim did.
Posted on July 8th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
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Robert Green said:
Hi,
I just stumbled upon this blog and ended up straight at this article. I’ve been wondering about the actual comparisons between the usual swing and the stack and tilt. As you say it is often very hard when watching the pro’s at work, as their is a very fine line between them. I must say, you have done a very good job comparing the two swings above, and I look forward to reading through the rest of your posts.
Rob
Posted on July 10th, 2008 at 6:44 am
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hanon said:
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
Click here.
This second video is dedicated to those saying that this swing doesn´t work without even trying it. The video looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulders around the FIXED SPINE AXIS (keeping the same inclination). This is the key!!
Click here.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
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Double Eagle said:
hanon, that Mike Bennett video is tremendous. Good amount of information from him about the basics of the swing and what’s going on.
Thanks for sharing those.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
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hanon said:
I am cross-linking the three main forums about S&T, one of those is this one. They have more than 100 comments about S&T in each forum and they are still alive after one year with this swing. Therefore I think it could be useful to have all three links together:
Geoff Shackelford
The Sand Trap
Posted on July 17th, 2008 at 7:58 am
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hanon said:
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
Posted on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
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chris said:
hanon, that is a very good question and an observation i have made also. my irons are 2* upright and always have been. the other day while using S&T it just seemed like my hosel kept digging in to the ground first. it only made sense to me that with the flatter swing and more rotational swing that i don’t need the extra upright swing. i got out the lie board and tape and sure enough i was contacting more off the hosel. i took the 2* out and made my irons standard lie. made a big difference.i feel like it is like the golf digest picture and comparison to the football place kicker. one will kick the ball much farther with the rotational speed than linear speed. kicking from an angle as opposed to kicking straight on. same concept applies to the S&T swing. hope that makes sense…if you can, check the lie on your irons…you might be surprised!
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
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David said:
S+T is a one plane rotary swing, during which the shoulders swing quite steeply but the arms are on a much flatter plane - if you’ve watched the dvd’s you will have seen that on the backswing the shaft bisects the right biceps muscle, so it’s well below the shoulder plane.
I have no idea what a flat stance is, but a flat swing plane is essential !
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
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frank m said:
stack an tilt, ok I can see it on iron play hitting down but using the driver with your weight on the front foot how do you get the sweep motion with woods
Posted on July 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
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Jim Marlow said:
You need to shift the weight even more to the left at the start of the downswing and through the downswing. That raises the left hip. These movements shallow the club shaft through the downswing.
Posted on July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
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Steve Hofmann said:
Hello everybody, I have been studying this swing over the last few days. I have tryouts for my high school golf team coming up, and for some reason, after the district tournament last year, I have not been able to get the same consistency I’ve had before. This swing seems to really help with that, and it’s been getting great reviews both here and on other sites I’ve visited. Is this swing really that effective and easy to do consistently. The way I think of it is:
1. Keep everything centered over the ball, weight slightly more on the front food.
2. During takeaway, keep front arm along ribcage and tilt the spine towards the target.
3. As you start the downswing, make a motion like you are crushing a can under your right (for me anyway, I’m a lefty) foot and slide your hips forward.
Is there anything I’m really missing? Also, what are a few things I really NEED to do to hit my driver well with this swing? I’ve heard many different things and just want to know what the best are.
Thank you very much for any help,
Steve
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Steve, I’m about half way through the DVD set and I wanted to point out something. Keep in mind that I tried the swing, but didn’t continue with it (not because I don’t think it’s a good swing - it’s as good as any other and the results people are seeing speak for themselves).
Regarding the takeaway, the spine tilts left, but not really in relation to the target (as I originally thought too). You must remain “stacked” over the ball, and it wouldn’t be possible if you tilted toward the target. However, you will tilt left in relation to your own turning hips and shoulders.
Looking from face on, your centers will be stacked over the ball still, but looking from behind, down the target line, you’re tilted kind of like you were at address, but since your shoulders have turned almost 90 degrees and the hips have turned to some lesser degree, you’re actually tilted to your own left.
But from face on, your shoulder center is over your hip center which is over the ball.
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
Steve, I have reviewed the DVD’s many times and failed to find any mention in the “crushing the can feeling with the front leg” to start the downswing. I know it was mentioned in Golf Digest article but maybe they didn’t think that was a good visual after all. They do however the importance of shifting the weight to the lead leg throughout the downswing (not a sudden thrust). That concept has really helped me.Good luck
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Jim, I’m through the first two DVDs and you’re right - they definitely don’t refer to the can-crushing move by name. My guess is, it tends to cause a little confusion to players that might not understand the purpose of the analogy. However, watching the first two discs, I think they do a great job of telling us what we need to do to perform the swing successfully.
I think in the context of a relatively short Golf Digest feature, the can-crushing move was a nice bit of imagery. But in the context of a much more in-depth DVD series, it’s not as necessary because the things it accomplishes are covered in great detail.
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I have always been a decent golfer, but struggled with a slice most of the time and could never really trust my swing. I’m tall and had a problem getting my weight on my left side during the swing follow-thru. Anyway, read about the S&T swing in golf digest, also viewed some Utube swing sequences of Aaron Baddeley and thought I’d give it a try. I just practiced going thru the motions and swinging without any ball and feels like I’m taking a 3/4 swing.For me the swing has worked out perfect. Now I’m getting thru the swing with my weight on my left side which gives my ball flight a lower and penetrating draw. In 2007 I was able to shoot my best score ever, a 60 and it seemed so effortless. It has improved my whole game and I would recommend this new S&T swing to anyone.
A comment on the WGC-Match Play Championship.Aaron Baddeley matched Tiger Woods shot for shot and had upset in his grasp had he been able to sink a putt. I think Baddeley will keep getting better and be a real threat to Tiger, given more time to fully master this unique swing.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
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Patrick said:
Pete,
Just read your post and my question is, what were you shooting before that 60? If you were anywhere close to that type of number I’m surprised you would have tinkered with such a radical swing change like the S&T. Anyway, congratulations!!!
I am still at the neophyte stage of this swing. Just played my third round of the year and am feeling more confident with it. Two things I am noticing that seem to contradict many others’experience are my distance and ball flight. I am hitting it farther than ever (coming up on my 48th b-day) and higher than ever.This swing seems to allow me to manipulate the clubface more than ever which may explain both. One thing I do seem to have in common is my back doesn’t ache after a round like it used to. A work in progress.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
I continue to be amazed. Thanks for sharing the experiences, guys.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
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Pete said:
My scoring average up to the middle of 2007 was 75 before the S&T swing change. I just could never trust the old traditional swing and that was always was in the back of my mind.
This new ball flight for me is lower and longer with a slight draw. I’m swinging a standard length stiff shaft driver with an 8.5 face. I also have a 9.5 driver for a somewhat higher trajectory. My long irons are crisper with a more boring trajectory, short irons are tight. I’m telling you, this swing has changed my game around, I just can’t believe it happened so quickly.
I love watching Baddeley’s swing in slo-mo and how he pinches the ball.Hey, I’ve only been at this for a year and believe there another 60 in me…somewhere?Just remember to crush the can!
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
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Patrick said:
I can tell I’m new to this swing because I had already forgotten the crucial element of “crushing the can”. So thanks for the reminder. I took that thought to the range today and hit six iron after six iron about 190 yds(I’m at elevation)and I swear they all landed within five feet from each other with perfect trajectory. I love the balance and on top of the ball feeling.
I totally agree about Baddely’s move. It looks effortless, but not in a Couples or Els kind of way. He will win a major soon.
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Pete said:
I will be watching to see how well the pro stack & tilters do this week at the Doral Tournament.
Here’s another swing thought to help master this swing. If your right handed keep your right elbow close to your side on the back & down swing. The right hand and shoulder start down together, caused by the crush the can move. Watch the rear view of Aaron Baddeleys swing on Utube bizhub from the start of the downswing. Centrifigal force takes over to complete the swing. That’s it, just a simple move.
To me Baddeley’s swing tempo seems quicker but more efficient with the shorter backswing, than Els or Couples. Also, I think your right, the S&T is much easier on the back.
Posted on March 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just started experimenting with the S & T and found your website invaluable.
My question revolves around the “crush the can” concept. The photos in the GD article show the ball of the foot crushing down on the can. Yet in the actual swing your left heel is off the ground. Am I missing something?
How about another image or thought for the transition to get the hips moving forward and to stand up straight at impact.
Thanks.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
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Double Eagle said:
Hi Ranger. Glad you found the website useful.
Regarding the issue about crushing the can, if you’re right-handed, your left heel shouldn’t be off the ground once the downswing starts. I think it’s probably OK if it comes up a little bit in the back swing. Once the down swing starts, though, it should be planted flat on the ground.
The feeling I had when I was trying out the swing was that of stomping my foot in to the turf (not lifting it up and then stomping, but just as if I was trying to push my foot down into into the turf).
Have a look at the images of Aaron Baddeley from the original article here. You can see that as the downswing starts, his left knee is flexed, but his foot is flat on the ground. As the swing progresses, his left leg straightens quickly and his hips thrust upward and become level. In all three images there, you can see his left foot squarely on the turf.
An alternative mental image you can use is quickly straightening your left leg as you swing down through the ball (while making sure to thrust your pelvis upward).
I hope that helps. Feel free to stop back and let everyone know how you make out.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
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Patrick said:
I took the S&T to the University of New Mexico Championship Course yesterday (host of this years NCAA Women’s championship in May). They have it in unbelievably good shape and with a 20 m.p.h wind it had teeth. Since I seem to be so early on in my S&T development, I find early in rounds I have trouble trusting this new swing and consequently don’t execute it as described. But after about three holes I start doing it correctly and the results are so good that I only wish I’d known of it twenty years ago. The “rotational” feel of the swing is becoming ingrained and it appears to produce really good club-head speed. Currently my thougt is centered on the pelvic thrust aspect on the through swing. Another big test comes Saturday at Pa-Ko Ridge.
Posted on March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
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Pete said:
On the weight shift and crush the can move. In my swing it feels like the weight goes to the right heel on the back swing. On the forward swing the weight goes to the left heel. It’s a very simple swing, with no lifting of the foot until after the ball is hit.
Posted on March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just returned from a four day trip to Florida where I was able to put the S & T into operational mode.
The results were far better than I had hoped for. I have always been a straight hitter off the tee. Not long but I hit about 70% of my fairways. My problem is that I hit only 40% of the greens. Through a lot of work with my short game I have been able to lower my hndcp to a 5.
My normal swing is laid off resulting in a lot of missed greens left or weak right. I am able to hit a lot of fairways because I use my hands to get the club square at impact.
The S & T has allowed me to finally hit my irons with authority. The first day out I hit over 55% of the greens and shot a 77.
Similar results the next two rounds. My driver and fairway woods remain about the same but clearly my iron play is where I needed improvement.
On my last day I ended up losing the swing a bit. Unless you are a pro, after four straight rounds the swing begins to fray at the edges. I began missing my irons left and then compensated by blocking them right.
When I got home I re-read your site and the Golf Digest articles and quickly realized that I was not straightening out my right leg and was thereby just whipping the club around waist thus leading to hooks or blocks.
Still working on the concept of “crushing the can” but your suggestion about straightening the left leg quickly makes sense.My only problem is I feel that I am already on my left side so how would I push down on the can. Again, maybe you can help me through that process.
I have never been more encouraged about starting the golf season than I am now. I intend to really commit to the S & T for the next month to see if it can continue to improve my iron play.
Your site has been very helpful.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Nice to see you making real progress, Ranger. I’m glad I’ve been able to help in a small way.
As far as the left leg and “can crushing” move, I think the following section of the Golf Digest article is key for you. I know you’ve read it multiple times, but it’s worth keeping in mind:
——-“The turning body is supplying the initial acceleration, so the player must maximize rotational speed. The hips have limited turning capacity when they’re tilted, so they have to come out of their tilt to keep accelerating. The move that releases the hips is a springing up of the lower body, where the butt muscles push the hips upward and toward the target. The player has to feel as if he’s jumping up as the club comes down.
As you start down, imagine you’re crushing a soda can under your left foot. The body has stayed centered on the backswing, so there’s no need to shift back to the ball. This downward pressure on the left foot sets up the upward thrust of the hips through impact.”——-
The part in bold is important. The left leg straightening (or “can crushing” move) is a function of that springing up movement. That’s another great bit of imagery that you can use. You’re not just pressing your foot into the turf for the sake of doing that, you’re doing that so you can engage your butt muscles and propel your hips upward.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
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David said:
Hi guys,
I was an early poster on your first post about S+T ( just after I had my first ever hole in one I think ) so just thought I’d let you know I still find it so easy to swing this way. Sunday I was only able to play 11 holes, very cold, course soaking wet after a downpour so absolutely not an inch of run even on full drives. Hit 8 greens of the first 9 in regulation ! Failed to hole a single birdie putt to the relief of my palying partners ( costs them 2 Euros per birdie ) but that’s another story. S+T still rocks !
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Thanks for giving us an update, David. It’s great to hear from more and more people who have tried the swing for some time and continue to have improved ball striking and consistency.
Now, you just need to get your putting in order to convert some of those birdie chances. At 2 Euro each, you’re going to be making some nice money from your partners.
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
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Bob said:
I have been working at this and have a couple of problems. One is the misses generally go left, I believe this may be caused by not being able to shorten the swing enough. The other is this swing seems to bother my left knee on occassion. Any advice?Thanks,Bob
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Bob, I don’t have any definitive advice to give you, so hopefully some of the other readers will be able to offer some thoughts.
One thing that does come to mind with respect to the knee pain is perhaps a flexibility issue. How is your flexibility in your back and hips? Maybe some tightness is causing a little extra torque on your knee? If you think that might be the culprit, it may help to do some stretching to target those areas. In my sidebar, there are links to the Titleist Performance Institute, Mike Pedersen Golf, and Better Golf With Fitness, all great resources on golf fitness where you can find tons of stretches and exercises to target those areas.
Hopefully someone out there has experience with shots missing left that can offer you some advice. Though, if you do have flexibility issues, that could cause a lot of problems.
All this is speculation, of course, since I haven’t seen your swing. Feel free to go into more detail about your swing and flexibility if you’d like and maybe someone will have some ideas.
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
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Joseph said:
Bob,my left knee bothers me too when I find that it caves in towards the ball on the backswing. If you have the same issue, try flaring your front foot more towards the target at setup. This will fold your front leg and point your knee more on a downward angle rather than towards the ball.
If you notice the pics in the Golf Digest’s article, you will see P&B have a flared foot and the knee is not caved in on their backswing.
Just a thought…
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
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Joseph said:
Bob,One more thought…
Pulling left? For me, I pull left on occasion because my rear shoulder tends to cheat and moves a little forward at setup because I put more weight on the front.
Be sure you are “stacked” over the ball and shoulders squared at setup.
Aloha
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
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Double Eagle said:
Great thoughts, Joseph. Thanks for sharing them.
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
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Joseph said:
Stack and Tilt has a new instructional DVD from P&B. Anyone have feedback on this? I am thinking of purchasing…
thanks
http://www.stackgolf.com/land01.php?sid=51985
Posted on May 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
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hanon said:
Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver:Click here.
Posted on June 5th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I am a 66 year old 8 handicap golfer that changes swing thoughts as often as some people change their underwear. I am tired of that and think I have found what I need with the S&T.
Golf lesson videos through the years show that I have two big swing faults. I raise my head on the backswing and left my hips sway towards the target on the downswing. The S&T easily corrects the head coming up since I feel like my head lowers towards the my left foot on the backswing and the shifting of my left hip towards the target is part of the S&T.
I would like to get a little more distance off the tee with the S&T. (looks like it goes farther when you see it in the air). Maybe when I get my DVD’s that I ordered it will give me some ideas on getting the ball out there a little farther.
The only other problem I encounter on an ongoing basis is trying to hit a 3 wood off the grass. Too often it pops up to the right.
I have also noticed that one cannot get lazy or worn out as the round goes on because if you don’t get those hips thrusted properly and with energy you will leave the shot out to the right.
But overall; I like the fact that I can take this swing to the course and it holds up better under pressure. I think it is because I only need to think about proper body movements and my arms and hands are just along for the ride.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting thoughts, Jim. Thanks for sharing them.
You’re definitely right about getting worn out during a round. With the S&T, I can see it getting worse because of the necessity of a good pelvic thrust. Fatigue certainly hurts players with conventional swings, but I can see the problem with S&T. All the more reason for all of us to get in shape and stay that way!
After you get the S&T DVDs and have a chance to watch them, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. There’s a lot of interest in the swing and players would love to know about them.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 am
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MIKE said:
Great resource. I had never even heard of the stack and tilt until a guy at the golf course asked me how long I had been doing it. I’ve had a lot of swing instruction in conventional swing hooked up to wires and vests, trying to get all the angles to match up with the pros and after a few lessons I would play pretty good until the wheels came off and I wouldn’t be able to hit the ball at all. My “default” swing that I would switch to, was one where my only thought was to stay on my left leg. I tend to get overactive in the lower body and have to flip at the ball to even get the clubhead on the ball. This “dead leg” swing as I think of it ensures consistent contact.
I’m not sure that I am doing everything as advocated by the stack and tilt, but what a relief to find out that what I do naturally is not necessarily a give up swing, but might be a valid way to hit the ball.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
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Double Eagle said:
Jim, glad to see you’re making serious improvement. I can’t wait to hear how the other DVDs are.
Mike, it’s very interesting to hear how you developed a natural stack and tilt. The human body is a wonderful thing. When given a repetitive task, it seems to find interesting ways to accomplish it efficiently. It’s as if you gave your body one parameter - the “dead left leg” and it figured out the rest intuitively over time.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
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MIKE said:
I played a lot of baseball, and I find it interesting to see the baseball swing used as an example of why the stack and tilt is NOT a good swing by some commenters saying that you wouldn’t hit a baseball without a weight transfer. In fact, I was taught to hit to contact off the lead leg with the trail leg almost completely un-weighted when the the swing happens. I find the concept of stack and tilt to be very baseball swing like.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting comparison to baseball, Mike. I haven’t given it much thought, having not played baseball since little league, but I think I understand what you mean. There is definitely something to the rotational power that the stack and tilt and other swings of that type can provide.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I reviewed the last two DVD’s today and all I can say is “Whew”. I am on sensory overload right now. The “in depth” DVD is just that. It goes into what the hips, legs, arms, hands and shaft do in the S&T system.
I initially liked the S&T because it seemed simple for me to replicate. From reading the articles in Golf Digest I thought that as long as I got the body movements right the arms and hands just came along automatically for the ride. That is true to some extent for the basic movements and one could expect probably play ok with just that knowledge. But in my opinion if you wanted to get into the low single digits than the “in depth DVD” becomes important.
A couple of suprises on that DVD are as follows. No where do they talk about the downswing beginning by pushing down on the right heel and then thrusting up the pelvis. They discuss the importance of pushing the hips continually left (not suddenly) on the downswing and at the same time pushing the hands away from the right shoulder. One of my swing faults is letting my head fall back to the right on my downswing. They advised that is caused by not letting the hands move away from the right shoulder on the downswing as the hips move left. Which, I guess, is why I tend to push many of my shots to the right with the S&T.
I am disappointed that there wasn’t a section on drills to work on the individual components of the S&T. I thought I saw in their literature that it came on the DVD’s.
All in all, I am glad to know more about the S&T and should slowly get better as Iwork on the various components.
If anyone has any questions; I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
100
Double Eagle said:
FYI to everyone - I received a press release from Medicus Golf about the widespread release of the Stack and Tilt DVD set. Apparently, it was in limited release before. I wrote a post about it here.
I expect to do a review on the DVD set myself in the near future. In the meantime, anyone who has seen it is welcome to comment as Jim did.
Posted on July 8th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
101
Robert Green said:
Hi,
I just stumbled upon this blog and ended up straight at this article. I’ve been wondering about the actual comparisons between the usual swing and the stack and tilt. As you say it is often very hard when watching the pro’s at work, as their is a very fine line between them. I must say, you have done a very good job comparing the two swings above, and I look forward to reading through the rest of your posts.
Rob
Posted on July 10th, 2008 at 6:44 am
102
hanon said:
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
Click here.
This second video is dedicated to those saying that this swing doesn´t work without even trying it. The video looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulders around the FIXED SPINE AXIS (keeping the same inclination). This is the key!!
Click here.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
103
Double Eagle said:
hanon, that Mike Bennett video is tremendous. Good amount of information from him about the basics of the swing and what’s going on.
Thanks for sharing those.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
104
hanon said:
I am cross-linking the three main forums about S&T, one of those is this one. They have more than 100 comments about S&T in each forum and they are still alive after one year with this swing. Therefore I think it could be useful to have all three links together:
Geoff Shackelford
The Sand Trap
Posted on July 17th, 2008 at 7:58 am
105
hanon said:
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
Posted on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
106
chris said:
hanon, that is a very good question and an observation i have made also. my irons are 2* upright and always have been. the other day while using S&T it just seemed like my hosel kept digging in to the ground first. it only made sense to me that with the flatter swing and more rotational swing that i don’t need the extra upright swing. i got out the lie board and tape and sure enough i was contacting more off the hosel. i took the 2* out and made my irons standard lie. made a big difference.i feel like it is like the golf digest picture and comparison to the football place kicker. one will kick the ball much farther with the rotational speed than linear speed. kicking from an angle as opposed to kicking straight on. same concept applies to the S&T swing. hope that makes sense…if you can, check the lie on your irons…you might be surprised!
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
107
David said:
S+T is a one plane rotary swing, during which the shoulders swing quite steeply but the arms are on a much flatter plane - if you’ve watched the dvd’s you will have seen that on the backswing the shaft bisects the right biceps muscle, so it’s well below the shoulder plane.
I have no idea what a flat stance is, but a flat swing plane is essential !
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
108
frank m said:
stack an tilt, ok I can see it on iron play hitting down but using the driver with your weight on the front foot how do you get the sweep motion with woods
Posted on July 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
109
Jim Marlow said:
You need to shift the weight even more to the left at the start of the downswing and through the downswing. That raises the left hip. These movements shallow the club shaft through the downswing.
Posted on July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
110
Steve Hofmann said:
Hello everybody, I have been studying this swing over the last few days. I have tryouts for my high school golf team coming up, and for some reason, after the district tournament last year, I have not been able to get the same consistency I’ve had before. This swing seems to really help with that, and it’s been getting great reviews both here and on other sites I’ve visited. Is this swing really that effective and easy to do consistently. The way I think of it is:
1. Keep everything centered over the ball, weight slightly more on the front food.
2. During takeaway, keep front arm along ribcage and tilt the spine towards the target.
3. As you start the downswing, make a motion like you are crushing a can under your right (for me anyway, I’m a lefty) foot and slide your hips forward.
Is there anything I’m really missing? Also, what are a few things I really NEED to do to hit my driver well with this swing? I’ve heard many different things and just want to know what the best are.
Thank you very much for any help,
Steve
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
111
Double Eagle said:
Steve, I’m about half way through the DVD set and I wanted to point out something. Keep in mind that I tried the swing, but didn’t continue with it (not because I don’t think it’s a good swing - it’s as good as any other and the results people are seeing speak for themselves).
Regarding the takeaway, the spine tilts left, but not really in relation to the target (as I originally thought too). You must remain “stacked” over the ball, and it wouldn’t be possible if you tilted toward the target. However, you will tilt left in relation to your own turning hips and shoulders.
Looking from face on, your centers will be stacked over the ball still, but looking from behind, down the target line, you’re tilted kind of like you were at address, but since your shoulders have turned almost 90 degrees and the hips have turned to some lesser degree, you’re actually tilted to your own left.
But from face on, your shoulder center is over your hip center which is over the ball.
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
112
Jim Marlow said:
Steve, I have reviewed the DVD’s many times and failed to find any mention in the “crushing the can feeling with the front leg” to start the downswing. I know it was mentioned in Golf Digest article but maybe they didn’t think that was a good visual after all. They do however the importance of shifting the weight to the lead leg throughout the downswing (not a sudden thrust). That concept has really helped me.Good luck
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
113
Double Eagle said:
Jim, I’m through the first two DVDs and you’re right - they definitely don’t refer to the can-crushing move by name. My guess is, it tends to cause a little confusion to players that might not understand the purpose of the analogy. However, watching the first two discs, I think they do a great job of telling us what we need to do to perform the swing successfully.
I think in the context of a relatively short Golf Digest feature, the can-crushing move was a nice bit of imagery. But in the context of a much more in-depth DVD series, it’s not as necessary because the things it accomplishes are covered in great detail.
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Saturday, September 13, 2008
Stack and Tilt
In a recent issue of Golf Digest (June 2007) a "new" golf swing being promoted by golf coaches Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett is featured. This new approach to the golf swing is called the "Stack and Tilt" swing.
In describing the Stack and Tilt swing, Peter Morrice, the author of the article, indulges in a bit of overstatement when he says "Their secret...contradicts almost everything being taught in the game today." But is this swing really that unique?
The Key Difference
The biggest difference with the "Stack and Tilt" swing is that it completely downplays the idea of shifting your weight to your back foot when making the backswing. In fact this "new" swing encourages the golfer to keep his or her weight on the front foot, and, if anything, move it more directly over the front foot during the takeaway.
Some older golfers will think this looks like a "reverse pivot" where the golfer seems to be leaning towards the target at the top of the swing. Teachers of the typical modern swing have their golf students draw the club back and stack their weight over their back leg when the club hits the top of the swing. But Stack and Tilt encourages the golfer to lean towards the target while the club is taken up.
Some Subtle Differences
For many golfers it may be hard to spot the differences at first, but there are some significant ones. For one thing with the typical modern swing the back leg remains bent with a slight flex at the knee. With the Stack and Tilt the back leg straightens out. The photos featured in the Golf Digest article (p.122) demonstrate how the back leg straightens out as it pushes back towards the target.
As a result the front side of the body is "stacked" over the front foot, and the trailing side of the body is "tilted" towards the target.
For a comparison with the typical modern swing look at photos of Tiger's swing of the last few years, or see the photo of V.J. Singh's swing on page 43 of the same issue of Golf Digest. Singh's upper body is "stacked" over his back leg at the top of the swing, and the trailing side of his torso is perpendicular to the ground as he pushes his weight back over his back leg. This is quite different from the way the torso is angled towards the target with the Stack and Tilt swing.
It's All Been Done Before
If you are familiar with the teachings of most modern golf coaches this may sound like a radical departure from golf orthodoxy. But the fact is, there have always been alternative schools of thought which questioned the simplistic "weight shift" idea. In particular, look at old photos of Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan or Sam Snead. None of these golfers make the major shift over the back leg like you see with Tiger Woods, for instance.
Or have a close look at the famous 1930s videos produced by Bobby Jones. There is no obvious shift towards the back leg. Jones remains centered over the ball throughout the swing and is more concerned with rotation around the center point than he is with the lateral weight shift characteristic of the typical modern swing.
Points of Interest
There are clearly some aspects of the Stack and Tilt swing that may help the average golfer hit the golf ball more squarely and more precisely.
The first is the lack of emphasis placed on the weight shift. For many golfers this idea is misleading and results in a lateral shift that basically turns the golf ball into a moving target. Shifting one's weight to the back also results in a "shallower" swing which increases the chances of bottoming out too early. Depending on a variety of factors this can either result in fat shots or thin ones. As an alternative, pressing into the front foot as you take the club back very definitely forces a steeper approach to the ball and should result in fewer topped shots. It also results in a lower trajectory since it de-lofts the club, and this may give you greater run on certain kinds of fairways.
The second point is that Stack and Tilt promotes a flatter swing. A flatter swing is less vertical and more rotational, and is the way Stack and Tilt compensates for being more on top of the ball when the downswing is begun.
The third point is the fairly advanced idea of the "pelvic thrust" which the Stack and Tilt teachers claim helps get the club approaching the ball correctly. This is probably where Stack and Tilt becomes too difficult for many average golfers. With Stack and Tilt, since one's weight and shoulder position are forward, the approach to the ball will be significantly steeper than normal. The pelvic thrust, along with the more rotational swing, helps to "shallow out" the swing. You achieve this by rapidly rotating your hips around and pushing your front hip up and towards the target. This creates the sensation of almost jumping up and striking the ball while on your toes. If you've ever seen Natalie Golbus swing a golf club you've got a fairly good idea what this looks like.
If these seem like technical points that are beyond your level of expertise, just give the "weight forward" idea a try. All you have to do is start with noticeably more weight on your front foot, and then press into that foot as you take the club up. You will probably find that it feels quite different from what you are used to. This move should result in fewer thin hits. But it may also result in more pushes, especially with the longer clubs, so you may have to adjust the positioning of the ball. You may also find it more physically taxing - requiring more body contortions - and for most of us that is not a good thing.
Rick Hendershot is an avid golfer who writes about the golf swing, golf travel and other golf stuff. Catch his blogs called The Weekend Golfer and Golf Around the World
In describing the Stack and Tilt swing, Peter Morrice, the author of the article, indulges in a bit of overstatement when he says "Their secret...contradicts almost everything being taught in the game today." But is this swing really that unique?
The Key Difference
The biggest difference with the "Stack and Tilt" swing is that it completely downplays the idea of shifting your weight to your back foot when making the backswing. In fact this "new" swing encourages the golfer to keep his or her weight on the front foot, and, if anything, move it more directly over the front foot during the takeaway.
Some older golfers will think this looks like a "reverse pivot" where the golfer seems to be leaning towards the target at the top of the swing. Teachers of the typical modern swing have their golf students draw the club back and stack their weight over their back leg when the club hits the top of the swing. But Stack and Tilt encourages the golfer to lean towards the target while the club is taken up.
Some Subtle Differences
For many golfers it may be hard to spot the differences at first, but there are some significant ones. For one thing with the typical modern swing the back leg remains bent with a slight flex at the knee. With the Stack and Tilt the back leg straightens out. The photos featured in the Golf Digest article (p.122) demonstrate how the back leg straightens out as it pushes back towards the target.
As a result the front side of the body is "stacked" over the front foot, and the trailing side of the body is "tilted" towards the target.
For a comparison with the typical modern swing look at photos of Tiger's swing of the last few years, or see the photo of V.J. Singh's swing on page 43 of the same issue of Golf Digest. Singh's upper body is "stacked" over his back leg at the top of the swing, and the trailing side of his torso is perpendicular to the ground as he pushes his weight back over his back leg. This is quite different from the way the torso is angled towards the target with the Stack and Tilt swing.
It's All Been Done Before
If you are familiar with the teachings of most modern golf coaches this may sound like a radical departure from golf orthodoxy. But the fact is, there have always been alternative schools of thought which questioned the simplistic "weight shift" idea. In particular, look at old photos of Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan or Sam Snead. None of these golfers make the major shift over the back leg like you see with Tiger Woods, for instance.
Or have a close look at the famous 1930s videos produced by Bobby Jones. There is no obvious shift towards the back leg. Jones remains centered over the ball throughout the swing and is more concerned with rotation around the center point than he is with the lateral weight shift characteristic of the typical modern swing.
Points of Interest
There are clearly some aspects of the Stack and Tilt swing that may help the average golfer hit the golf ball more squarely and more precisely.
The first is the lack of emphasis placed on the weight shift. For many golfers this idea is misleading and results in a lateral shift that basically turns the golf ball into a moving target. Shifting one's weight to the back also results in a "shallower" swing which increases the chances of bottoming out too early. Depending on a variety of factors this can either result in fat shots or thin ones. As an alternative, pressing into the front foot as you take the club back very definitely forces a steeper approach to the ball and should result in fewer topped shots. It also results in a lower trajectory since it de-lofts the club, and this may give you greater run on certain kinds of fairways.
The second point is that Stack and Tilt promotes a flatter swing. A flatter swing is less vertical and more rotational, and is the way Stack and Tilt compensates for being more on top of the ball when the downswing is begun.
The third point is the fairly advanced idea of the "pelvic thrust" which the Stack and Tilt teachers claim helps get the club approaching the ball correctly. This is probably where Stack and Tilt becomes too difficult for many average golfers. With Stack and Tilt, since one's weight and shoulder position are forward, the approach to the ball will be significantly steeper than normal. The pelvic thrust, along with the more rotational swing, helps to "shallow out" the swing. You achieve this by rapidly rotating your hips around and pushing your front hip up and towards the target. This creates the sensation of almost jumping up and striking the ball while on your toes. If you've ever seen Natalie Golbus swing a golf club you've got a fairly good idea what this looks like.
If these seem like technical points that are beyond your level of expertise, just give the "weight forward" idea a try. All you have to do is start with noticeably more weight on your front foot, and then press into that foot as you take the club up. You will probably find that it feels quite different from what you are used to. This move should result in fewer thin hits. But it may also result in more pushes, especially with the longer clubs, so you may have to adjust the positioning of the ball. You may also find it more physically taxing - requiring more body contortions - and for most of us that is not a good thing.
Rick Hendershot is an avid golfer who writes about the golf swing, golf travel and other golf stuff. Catch his blogs called The Weekend Golfer and Golf Around the World
Stack and Tilt
You are probably wondering what the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is. You have heard people talking about this new golf swing but you do not have any idea what it's all about. So now you have searched the internet to learn more about this new swing
The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is a technique being promoted by Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer, who are both golf coaches. It encourages golf players to put most of their weight on their front foot, resulting to maximum control once the golf club makes contact with the ground.
This swing differs from the basic golf swing in terms of set up as well as with the parts. The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing has a different backswing, downswing, impact, and lastly, follow through. If you are going to examine the difference between a player who is using this swing and a player who is doing a conventional swing you will notice that the former is over his golf ball, while the latter is behind the ball, his spine tilted. During a game, the player maintains a certain level. The player's right hand, though, is lower than the grip. In doing so, the player's right shoulder is also lower than his left shoulder.
Whether you choose to try the Stack and Tilt golf swing is entirely up to you. Most professional players have developed their own unique swing because everyone has a different physique. So each swing will be different and the body position will vary depending on the height of the golfer. The best tip we can share with you is to practice as much and as often as you can. This is the only real way to improve your swing and for you to become a better player.
For more golf swing tips and golf information, visit our site - http://www.GolfSwingInfo.com
The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is a technique being promoted by Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer, who are both golf coaches. It encourages golf players to put most of their weight on their front foot, resulting to maximum control once the golf club makes contact with the ground.
This swing differs from the basic golf swing in terms of set up as well as with the parts. The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing has a different backswing, downswing, impact, and lastly, follow through. If you are going to examine the difference between a player who is using this swing and a player who is doing a conventional swing you will notice that the former is over his golf ball, while the latter is behind the ball, his spine tilted. During a game, the player maintains a certain level. The player's right hand, though, is lower than the grip. In doing so, the player's right shoulder is also lower than his left shoulder.
Whether you choose to try the Stack and Tilt golf swing is entirely up to you. Most professional players have developed their own unique swing because everyone has a different physique. So each swing will be different and the body position will vary depending on the height of the golfer. The best tip we can share with you is to practice as much and as often as you can. This is the only real way to improve your swing and for you to become a better player.
For more golf swing tips and golf information, visit our site - http://www.GolfSwingInfo.com
Stack and Tilt
How to Do a Stack and Tilt Golf Swing
By Bill HerrfeldtIf you spend any time at all watching The Golf Channel, you've probably become aware of a new way to swing a golf club that has gotten the attention of golfers everywhere. It's called the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing, a technique being promoted by golf coaches Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer. PGA players like Aaron Baddeley, Mike Weir and new-comer Charlie Wi swear by this method and say that it both helps them hit the golf ball farther and improves their accuracy. Learn how to do a stack and tilt golf swing and decide if it is right for your game.
Instructions
Things You’ll Need:
- Golf clubs
- Space to practice
Step1
Be prepared to totally change the way you approach your shots. Instead of shifting your weight to your back foot during your backswing and then moving it to your front foot during your downswing, you will keep your weight on your front foot throughout your swing. In fact, you will move your weight more directly over your front foot during your backswing, anathema to golfers who swing traditionally. This swing is a bit like the “reverse pivot” which older golfers might remember. Step2
The Stack and Tilt swing requires that you change your leg action. Till now, you have been taught to keep your knees slightly bent throughout the swing and your torso slightly bowed. With the Stack and Tilt swing, your back leg will straighten at the top of your swing, and drive what's left of your weight to your front side during the downswing. Step3
Press into your front foot at the takeaway and create a steeper backswing than normal. That will result in greater consistency and fewer topped shots; and since your trajectory will be lower, you will hit your tee shots longer because, in most cases, you will improve the ball's run on many fairways. Step4
Enjoy playing golf more using a Stack and Tilt swing because the chances are you will hit the golf ball more squarely and precisely employing the Stack and Tilt swing than the one you are currently using. Furthermore, since your new swing de-emphasizes the weigh shift, you will be less likely to turn your golf ball into a “moving target.” Also, since you will be keeping your weight on the front foot throughout the swing, your swing will be steeper and you will be less likely to hit the ball either fat or thin. Friday, September 12, 2008
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