From thesandtrap.com

A Few Months Later: Stack and Tilt
Posted August 1st, 2007 by Erik J. Barzeski
Stack and Tilt: a fad or a little bit closer to a universal golf truth? We'd like your feedback.
Three simple words - Stack and Tilt - have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It's the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It's the move that's led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It's a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It's also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible "traditional swing" pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. "Only a big duffer swings like that!" I thought to myself. I also thought "if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it."
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan's Five Lessons? They don't come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I've developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I've given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I've adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I've adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don't have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don't crush any cans, I don't "pop up," and I don't feel as though I'm leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don't want to get away from the central question: If you've taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How's your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?


TomPosted 22 Aug 2008 at 6:46am #
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i'm hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
-->Richard HPosted 26 Aug 2008 (5 weeks ago) at 8:53pm #
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90's but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR's and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can't wait until Thursday to play again.
-->TomPosted 28 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 4:05pm #
Bill said on August 20, 2008:
I'm a 7 index and I got the DVD's and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
I'm sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !Tom
-->TMPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 12:52pm #
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I've ever seen. Don't get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I'm no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn't apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don't* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don't want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
-->Guy CammorataPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:32pm #
The dvd's are returnable
-->Brian WillsPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:34pm #
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
-->TomPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 6:29am #
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
-->BobPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:19am #
I am in my early 60's. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it's an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives - mostly straight or with a little draw - are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn't getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I'm not a teacher so I can't explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I'd be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
-->RookatPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:58am #
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says "are you still doin Andy Brown"? Usually I'm expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
-->hanonPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:51pm #
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book "Four magic Moves to Winning Golf" (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on "controlled" weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXNglCDcz4
-->JimPosted 04 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 9:32am #
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
-->PerrenPosted 05 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 4:54pm #
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I've seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I've always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high - I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades - I just couldn't get "down" into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a "popping" of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center - not one "miss hit" on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors!
-->EdPosted 08 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 12:56pm #
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you're having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I'm hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have -- beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin -- and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can't use the "textbook" Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep -- and it's not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I'm enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys -- is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball -- and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt...