Golf Swing Instruction
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Saturday, December 13, 2008
Saturday, November 15, 2008
What is the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing?
What is the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing?
By Tony Newton
You are probably wondering what the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is. You have heard people talking about this new golf swing but you do not have any idea what it's all about. So now you have searched the internet to learn more about this new swing
The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is a technique being promoted by Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer, who are both golf coaches. It encourages golf players to put most of their weight on their front foot, resulting to maximum control once the golf club makes contact with the ground.
This swing differs from the basic golf swing in terms of set up as well as with the parts. The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing has a different backswing, downswing, impact, and lastly, follow through. If you are going to examine the difference between a player who is using this swing and a player who is doing a conventional swing you will notice that the former is over his golf ball, while the latter is behind the ball, his spine tilted. During a game, the player maintains a certain level. The player's right hand, though, is lower than the grip. In doing so, the player's right shoulder is also lower than his left shoulder.
Whether you choose to try the Stack and Tilt golf swing is entirely up to you. Most professional players have developed their own unique swing because everyone has a different physique. So each swing will be different and the body position will vary depending on the height of the golfer. The best tip we can share with you is to practice as much and as often as you can. This is the only real way to improve your swing and for you to become a better player.
For more golf swing tips and golf information, visit our site - http://www.GolfSwingInfo.com
By Tony Newton
You are probably wondering what the Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is. You have heard people talking about this new golf swing but you do not have any idea what it's all about. So now you have searched the internet to learn more about this new swing
The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing is a technique being promoted by Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer, who are both golf coaches. It encourages golf players to put most of their weight on their front foot, resulting to maximum control once the golf club makes contact with the ground.
This swing differs from the basic golf swing in terms of set up as well as with the parts. The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing has a different backswing, downswing, impact, and lastly, follow through. If you are going to examine the difference between a player who is using this swing and a player who is doing a conventional swing you will notice that the former is over his golf ball, while the latter is behind the ball, his spine tilted. During a game, the player maintains a certain level. The player's right hand, though, is lower than the grip. In doing so, the player's right shoulder is also lower than his left shoulder.
Whether you choose to try the Stack and Tilt golf swing is entirely up to you. Most professional players have developed their own unique swing because everyone has a different physique. So each swing will be different and the body position will vary depending on the height of the golfer. The best tip we can share with you is to practice as much and as often as you can. This is the only real way to improve your swing and for you to become a better player.
For more golf swing tips and golf information, visit our site - http://www.GolfSwingInfo.com
Tuesday, October 28, 2008
Nick Faldo Swingvision
CGA...I hit the WRONG button ,,, I AGREE w/ your comment. Love Faldo's swing
cgasucks (2 månader sedan) My favorite swing...Els is a close second...
emncaity (3 månader sedan) Wow, thanks for posting. Great swing, great player, really miss seeing him compete.
hogansquest (3 veckor sedan) yeah me too it seems a shame but maybe we will see him have a real go on senior tour over next few years, but golf gave nick so much and took so much away from him, so maybe hes just decided hes got nothing to prove anymore.
emncaity (3 veckor sedan) Quite sure that's true--just as with Greg Norman. Golf has been overrun with people who think Tiger invented the game, the competition now is better than it's ever been (you know, "these guys are good" promotions), etc. I would imagine guys like Faldo and Norman figure that anybody who knows anything about golf remembers that they were #1 and remembers how they played, and those are the only people that matter. You can't make a further reputation with dolts.
Sunday, October 26, 2008
Stack and Tilt
In my opinion, unnatural junk. From one false move to another. Compensation after compensation, and from a physio's point of view, big problems as you get older.
efranssens (2 månader sedan)
Just watch Ben Hogen or Sam Sneed....
SBPStudio (2 månader sedan)
Loving this swing thusfar. However my front knee hurts more than ever. Ive been using it for about a week now.I might need a tweak of some sort. Any ideas?
TheTeam4 (2 månader sedan)
I was a little sore first using the swing probably because my body was not use to the changes in swinging a golf club. So, I stretch a little more before a round of golf.
jumbo21515G (1 månad sedan)
Have you tried opening your stance (front foot) a bit more?
jumbo21515G (1 månad sedan)
Have you tried opening your stance (front foot) a bit more?
Noallegiance (1 månad sedan)
Developed after 20 years of research? More like stolen after 5 years of lessons.
Friday, October 10, 2008
Stack and Tilt video
i really ike the follow through, looks very powerful and controlled
jochooi (1 year ago)
Stacked yes, but where's the tilt?
fogelbaby (1 year ago)
the tilt is in the downswing. the left shoulder comes up as the tight tilts under
ambush923 (1 year ago)
Its a better way to swing, none of that sliding on the back swing
pecky1234 (1 year ago)
great swing but the whole stack and tilt thing, i fink, doesn't work with a driver. you get so far forward and on top its very difficult to stay behind the ball and hit it properly
USA50cal (1 year ago)
It is not as bad as you think. It all depends on your swing speed and shaft selection. Stiff shaft and about 90-95 swing speed, and it is very efficient.
hogansking (9 months ago)
What you're saying here has no bearing whatsoever.
USA50cal (9 months ago)
Stay forward with the stack and tilt method and use an extremely fast swing speed with a regular flex shaft. Your swing gets so steep and so fast, the club is way behind your body. You will get bad pushes, and dead pulls when trying to overcompensate.
hogansking (9 months ago
There are 3 initial directions the ball can travel on when leaving the clubface (straight, right or left of target...basic ball flight laws).If you are ahead of it (as many amateurs are whether they stack & tilt or not)the ball can leave the clubface in any of the 3 previously mentioned directions depending on the nature of thecompensation....
hogansking (9 months ago)
Furthermore 90-95 mph is not an extremely fast clubhead speed and does not warrant a stiff shaft which will worsen the pushing effect to the right for the RH golfer. Subconciously of course this golfer will overcompensate for not being able to square the face and susequently pull the ball. Come on... this is pretty basic stuff.
USA50cal (9 months ago)
Of course the club is harder to square with a shaft that is too stiff for your particular swing. But a stiff shaft can be suitable for an individual that has a 90-95 swing speed. While everything you are saying is true, all I am saying is that a stiff shaft is fine for stack and tilt with a moderate swing speed.
hogansking (9 months ago)
What would usually be considered a standard stiff shaft is practically always too stiff for the golfer with this clubhead speed. Even for those whom have have an abrupt transition and load the shaft early in the downswing. If driver clubhead speed is closer to 100 or more, then yes a regular shaft can be too soft and lag behind for those whom load it early. Again S&T or not.
johnm41887 (6 months ago)
if what you are saying is true about 100mph clubhead speed being good for a stiff shaft, then that means a lot of the shorter hitting pga pros (zach johnson, steve stricker, etc.) are playing too stiff a shaft and should go down to a stiff shaft, because they only average between 100-108 mph clubhead speed and they all use x-stiff shafts. most shaft manufacturers have their stiff shafts suited for players with a swing speed of 90mph and up.
hogansking (6 months ago)
The average driving distance on tour is 280.9 Zach is 268 and 280 last year. Stricker is tour avg (this year). I didn't check his stats for last year. A couple of things: Avg. driving distance is not recorded on every hole (used to be 2 holes only & maybe still is) On occasion the player may not be using his driver on the hole being used to record the distance. This then throws off the stats. Typically every mph hour of clubhead speed with driver= 2.35 to 2.5 yards of carry...
hogansking (6 months ago)
Todays technology works in an exponential manner meaning the more clubhead speed the longer the ball flies in proportion to that speed. This being said you can't rely exactly on the stats to determine Zach's & Steve's clubhead speed. For sure Zach is somewhere around 108 & Steve is a little higher. They are not in the say 100-105 mph range. You can't forget that there is more than just clubhead speed that goes into the equation when determining shaft flex.
FamilyHealthTeam (1 year ago)
You are stacked over your right foot, and the tilt comes from the tilting of your body towards the target at the top of your swing.Google: Stack and Tilt golf.
faderjoe (11 months ago)
No- You stack over the left leg. No rightward movement. The Tilt is out and down over the left knee from a spine tilt with a slight turn of the right shoulder toward the target. google- Sam Snead.
faderjoe (11 months ago)
Stack and Tilt is Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus. Pure and Simple. It is not the current pga instruction of today- the move to the right leg and move back to the left. That is Ballard, McLean and Ledbetter and everyone else that fails to see how the spine works in a golf swing. This stroke works for everyone.
hogansking (10 months ago)
You put up any swing of Hogan, Nicklaus or Snead and I'll show you how to look at it & help you realize there is absolutely no tilt towards the target during the backswing...and if you believe the spine should tilt towards the target during this phase of the swing then you truly have no idea "how the spine works in a golf stroke". That you can take to the bank!
wethepeople14 (11 months ago)
i think stack and tilt is a suitable way to swing but it is tough on the body. The lower body is driving hard to produce the power and at the same time the upper body is moving slightly back(tilt) to level the bottom of the swing arc out. The player has to stay in good condition or back problems could occur. Correct me if i'm wrong but all the guys on tour that use stack and tilt are in really good condition.
hogansking (9 months ago)
You're right. The upper body in moving back too much to level out the bottom of the swing can cause lower back issues (L4, L5) with overuse. As the spine rotates towards target with speed the spine should not be extending this way. Although Fred Couples never stayed on his left side he did tilt and then tilted back. Disc sheer was the result, maybe also because of a degenerative problem but his swing didn't help...
hogansking (9 months ago)
Keep in mind that Badds, Weir... don't tilt towards the target as described in the Golf Digest. Check out my Weir viedeo.
KngZ28 (11 months ago)
This is very similar to what I have developed for myself to stop the "sway" and "sliding hips" I used to have. Now I'm trying to figure out how to move with power and still hit high long irons. That's the hardest part of this style, getting air with low lofted clubs, and maintain distance without a reverse pivot.
pecky1234 (11 months ago)
stack and tilt doesnt work. they have removed the problem of sliding and swaying, and created a new one of incorrect spine angle. ur tailbone has to be closer to the target than ur head at impact. fact. evry gr8 player is like that. everyone. so to move from tilting toward the target at the top, to away from it at impact is more of a problem than swaying
333pg333 (10 months
Erghh!! It's ugly and bad for your back no matter what they say. If you want to see someone with great body angles look at Rod Pampling. At the top coming down into the ball there is a resemblance to another golfer who was renown for his ball-striking...Hogan.
adsfigo (10 months ago)
Stack and tilt is a bad way to phrase the swing, the golf swing is a motion and at no time does the player 'stop' to stack or tilt in the swing. Its a very effective method to build a tight and compact swing, but any good player can see that its just resisting the turn on the backswing and keeping the head fixed over the ball. I personally feel the results are more consistent shots and i highlight the word consistent, not necessarily 'better' shots.
adsfigo (10 months ago)
Although looking at this again this player doesn't seem to resist the turn, a better example is aaron baddeley.
golfmac1 (10 months ago)
best golfer alive
JosefromParaguay (9 months ag
I had one of the Starters talk to me about Stack and Tilt the other day on the range. He said it gave him confidence and was able to hit shots better. Look it doesn't matter the style you swing the club, though path and plane are extremely important. Golf is about putting the ball in the hole. That is it. People forget that though sometimes.
eliyates2 (9 months ago)
you can have the ugliest swing in the world but as long as you maintain good lag and have good contact with the clubface and ball at impact then you will be a fine golfer... besides its the shortgame that matters most.
Derbygirltown (9 months a
I can see there are definite similarities with Hogan~that is the bottom line. What a great swing! the dream swing! We would all like to have stack and tilt problems of the so called bad back! ha. Must be a comment from a pro that teaches a different method?
hogansking (9 months ago)
Many professional golfers have bad backs...why do you think that is?
robbenandronaldo (7 months ago
The position at the top of his backswing looks well-loaded. What a lovely swing!Stack and Tilt FTW!
j3j33 (6 months ag
I tried the stack and tilt this afternoon on the range. The first suggestion they make is more weight on the front foot. This is very similar to the age old lesson about chipping...and value of the chipping stance seems to be of the same value in the full shot. Don't know why someone didn't think of this a long time ago.
andypatnou (5 months ag
Does he have a 10 finger grip?
juicysteak (3 months ago)
It works for me and wasn't bad on the back after 100 balls at the range and 9 holes. I've never hit the irons so straight or consistent. I've always hit the irons high and long (when solid contact is made) and that didn't change with S&T. Hitting the driver was more of a challenge. To make it work I found myself choking up a tad and taking my backswing on a higher plane. I had no problem with distance. This is a great swing for me!
WilsonStaffCPGA (3 months ago)
the stack and tilt swing is the professional way to recover from a reverse pivot it is not the best way to swing, it is not consistant enough to be used by the big pro's. Tiger woods, Phil, Padraig etc... If this was the best way to swing it then these big names would be doing it to. a reverse pivot is the worst thing you can do to hit the ball!! By the was 90 95 mph warrants a regualr flex, I am 120 and 130 when i rip at it i use x flex with mid kick point and 2.7 torque!!
WilsonStaffCPGA (3 months ago
being stacked on top of the ball is what you are supposed to do but you should be stacked and balanced!!
worldchamp2007 (3 months ago)
What is right or wrong for the top professionals has little bearing on my game. I am at my own (very low) skill level and also have my own physiology (strengths/weaknesses, joint angles, etc.)The S&T is not for everyone, for sure. I also agree with your comment about 'stacked and balanced'. I found that keeping myself balanced over the ball for the entire swing produced more consistent results. I was out in 110 degree weather yesterday and was sticking the irons. 190 yards, 6I - boom!
uvrs66 (1 month ag
Wow! Are you by any chance into yourself a little bit? Hmmm?
WilsonStaffCPGA (1 month ago)
if you are talking to me I teach golf for a living and work with some of the biggest teachers in Canada. Stack and Tilt is not the best way to go about it. Driver is to hard to control!!
quasar1983 (1 month ago
I just tried hit today for a few balls, and experienced unprecedent success with my driver. I have to admit my irons were a little low..but I will work on that. It seems to be an interesting way to swing. I'm an 8 handicap.
Thursday, October 2, 2008
Some words about Stack and Tilt golf swing
Has Stack and Tilt worked for you?
If you are a savvy fan of the golf swing, you have probably heard somewhere along the line of the new "Stack and Tilt" swing, as invented by Philadelphians Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett. Many probably read the section in Golf Digest, touting the new found success of Australian Aaron Baddeley ever since he dropped David Leadbetter and started with this swing.
However, some golf fans have not found the cure, or "the revolution" as Plummer and Bennett refer to it, yet.
For those of you who have given it a shot, how has the stack and tilt swing worked for you?
If you are struggling, check out this video courtesy of YouTube and Shawn Clement, director of the Richmond Hill Golf Learning Center.
at 5:32 PM
21 comments:
Anonymous said...
The stack and tilt has improved my game tremendously, I have gone from a 90's shooter to low 80's since applying these methods.
10:44 AM
Anonymous said...
My instructor has moved to stack and tilt and is now teaching it to his students. For me, I have a habit of hitting fat, and this addresses it. I am hitting the ball squarer and further then I ever have in the past. Very simple style of swing, essentially only a two move swing. It eliminates timing errors of weight shifting. I think this is a great swing for mid to high handicappers.
6:00 PM
Tom W. said...
I'm 60 yrs old, have a 7.3 index at a forgiving local public course (http://www.willowgolf.com), and have played, analyzed (and loved) the game for 53 years.I read the Stack & Tilt article twice, and got very enthusiastic. It just made all kinds of sense to me. Yesterday (no practice sessions) I just went out and played a round. I could not believe the difference. Stack & Tilt eliminated my long, weight-shifting, wristy, slightly out-to-in swing and replaced it with a short, simple, connected one. It's like someone else is hitting the ball. I can't believe how far the ball goes, considering my backswing feels like it's about half the length it was before.Example: Three years ago, aided by a 35 mph tailwind I drove the green from the middle (white) tees on a 280 yard par 4, which plays across a pond. I remember putting everything I had into it - I haven't made it since.Yesterday I was pin high just to the left of that green; against a 5-10 mph crossing breeze! I hit the shot with a normal swing effort which always leaves me about 30 to 50 yards short. It didn't feel any different except when I looked up I saw a lower, more penetrating ball flight with a slight draw. Trust me - that's not how I usually hit the ball (grin).My ball flight is now right-to-left or straight, and it seems that I have greatly reduced my chances for swing errors by adopting Stack & Tilt. It really feels different - much shorter, and for the first time I now understand what a "connected" swing feels like.
12:43 PM
Anonymous said...
It has improved all aspects of my ball striking.. especially driving (both length and accuracy). All in a few weeks with no formal instruction! The best part is I now have my confidence back. Thank you Bennett and Plummer for thinking outside the box!
3:43 PM
Anonymous said...
Tried the swing out on the course and I have to say I'm converted. I'm a 12 handicapper and haven't seen huge improvement in my swing even with a couple of lessons every year. There were always too many moving parts that had to be aligned in order to hit the sweet spot of the club.I like the fact that by taking the weight shift and head shift out of the equation, I was able to concentrate more on staying connected through the back swing.I must say I didn't have huge success with the 'jumping up' move at impact. But I still think the merits outweigh what I haven't been able to master.I'm a fan the stack and tilt.
11:52 AM
Golf Champ said...
So, last week I decided to make the switch to the S&T. The reason being that I had been on vacation and my ball striking was miserable when I came back. As soon as I started using the swing, I made amazing contact. The success of the swing type is truly spectacular.I love the stack and tilt and would recommend it for any amateur golfer.
7:27 PM
Anonymous said...
I went to the stack and tilt method a little less than a month ago, and I have never hit the ball so well. For the first time in my life the majority of my range session are good to excellent, and there have been some where I hit virtually every shot between the screws. This is amazing for me, since I always struggled to make solid contact.This has been reflected on the course as well, as I have on more than one occasion hit 10 greens in a row in regulation, something I couldn't even dream of before. Not surprisingly, my handicap has dropped; I was a four handicap who was struggling to stay there, but now I'm a three and will drop to at least a 2.4 after the next revision date. It's quite simply the correct way to hit the ball.I do have to point out, though, that the two men who have popularized this method DID NOT invent it -- they just christened it stack and tilt.
1:48 AM
onewayray said...
I love it! I move off the ball like Curtis Strange and have always had a hard time getting back to the ball. I would find myself getting the club caught behind me. With the Stack and Tilt I am staying over the ball and hitting the ball much more consistently. I have also seen a great improvement in my sand game. I recently qualified for a National tournament and couldn't be happier!
12:52 PM
onewayray said...
I love it! I move off the ball like Curtis Strange and have always had a hard time getting back to the ball. I would find myself getting the club caught behind me. With the Stack and Tilt I am hitting the ball much more consistantly. I have also seen a great improvement in my sand game.
12:54 PM
mac810 said...
Was looking through old Golf Digest's and came across the Stack & Tilt article and decided to go to the range and try it. I have never hit the ball so flush and consistently in my life.Tried it on the course yesterday, did not hit the driver as well as I would like, but after about 5 holes I was hitting everything but the driver flush.Just found part 2 of the article on line and they address the driver a little more, so I'm hoping I will be hitting that like my other clubs soon.
1:25 PM
Anonymous said...
The guy in the video clearly has no clue about the S&T. He can be seen shifting and swaying off the ball during his drills. Note the lateral movement of his head on his feet together drill. Also, he sets up with his centers behind the ball, which can be the bane of the conventional swinger. Look at the vid of Will Mackenzie and compare this guy with Will. There are no similarities between the two. This pro should go back and read and learn what the GD articles say, and then he should carefully practice the move before providing an analysis. Nothing says "charlattan" more than an uninformed instructor.
1:36 PM
Anonymous said...
I have briefly tried the stack and tilt over the last 3 weeks. I read the initial article and found it interesting, but dismissed it as another fad swing. I then saw the followup article in golf digest and was at a point where I was willing to try something new. I was truly amazed. I studied the article and tried it. I saw immediate improvement in accuracy,distance and a newfound consistency. Honsestly, it seemed too good to be true. So far, though it HAS held up-I pray it remains that way. The adjustments for the driver swing in the 2nd golg digest article were very helpful.
5:00 PM
Anonymous said...
it is indeed the cure for me... once a 5.9 HC and recently ballooned to 10 due to rib and back pain... SaT has enabled me to play pain free for the past two weeks... and I've already dipped back down to an 8.5... which would be even lower had I been able to putt better tooIn a nutshell:I am hitting longer by a club to a club and a halfi am hitting controllable drawsI am hitting straighterI can make a pain free _full_ turnI can hit long ironsI can now hit a driver using SaT - I just grip down about 2" on the driver and hit solid , longer, straighter drivesoh yeah... did I mention I'm playing pain free for the first time in four years?what's not to like about?
3:01 PM
Anonymous said...
I will agree with all of the statements above. The swing is sound and adds distance to every club. The first thing I noticed was a gain of 25 yards to my driver and I have never been known as a short hitter. Yesterday I got 3 yards short of a tough 555 yd. par 5 in two shots. The only new comment I can add is, the harder I swing the better the contact becomes. I really like to go after the ball and now I can really make the ball explode.
12:13 PM
Anonymous said...
I have gone from a 6 handicap to a 1 this summer thanks to S&T. I have played for 30+ years, tried various swing theories including Jimmy Ballard / Connection and S&T works the best. Now at 40 years old, I am playing the best golf of my life. My shot dispersion has decreased dramatically and I hit the ball solidly much more consistently. Now, is there S&T for putting!!?!?
2:33 PM
Tom said...
Unbelievable....Goodbye fat and thin shots. Went from 16HC to 12. Not sure if if S & T is good for the driver. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
12:02 PM
Anonymous said...
S&T swing I can hit the driver, man goal to keep head steady, hitting it a long way 270+ now, before about the same but much more accurate, and irons better controal and distence such as 7 irons 175-180 yards normal, and easy to cut/draw/high/low.
8:54 PM
Timothy said...
The stack and Tilt swing has been an epiphany for me. I have been playing golf for almost one year and have taken lessons, but until I discovered the Stack and Tilt swing, it was very hard to maintain any consistency without spending a lot of time at the range hitting balls which got expensive.After reading about the stack & tilt, I went to the range and was hitting shots much more solid and longer with a slight draw. So far where I was hitting a four iron is now a five. This swing has made me a much more consistent ball striker with less swing anxiety that I had from the conventional swing because my body doesn't move off the ball. This week I will take the swing to the course and report back on how it worked out.
9:48 PM
Timothy said...
Today I took the Stack and Tilt swing to the range and the results were very positive. I shot 42 on a local course's front nine. My usual score for nine is hovers between 49 and 51. For starters, the S & T swing is a very athletic swing; to make this swing work, one has to be some what aggresive on down swing. I hit 6 out of the 9 fairways and 5 G.I.R's. My shots were long and straight with a gentle fade. The greens I did miss were just shy of the green either to the left or the right for easy up and downs. My ball striking was fairly consistent for a new swing change. The highlight of my game was a 280 yard bomb on the fifth hole that put me within 100 yards of the green. Some things that came to my attention with the S& T swing is that 1.) It is a very physically taxing swing due to being a rotational swing. 2.) To hit the driver what worked for me was teeing the ball low and choking up on it bit. 3.) What makes this swing really work is the hip movement; if the hip turn gets lazythen this swing goes south real quick. As a matter of fact, the only bad shot I hit was because of lazy hips. 4.) Speaking for myself, I found that starting the downswing with hips allowed for the straightest shots with a slight draw. With this swing I realized that I was constantly slicing and pushing my driver shots was because my arms were always getting stuck behind me on the downswing. With the S & T swing I initiate the downswing with my hips and clear my left side so that my arms can swing around my body more freely. The S &T swing has allowed me to hit the driver much straighter. Lastly, rotating the arms around the body on the back swing is key as well. Also, make sure your left arm is on the same plane as your shoulder by keeping your hands low on the take away. Overall, I am pleased with the S & T swing; I expect to break 80 with it before the golf season ends here in Kentucky. The next time out I will be more comfortable with the S & T.
8:51 PM
Anonymous said...
For stack and tilt driver problems my way to correct it was to move the ball outside my front foot at address. Due to the steeper angle of attack the arc of the circle needs more time to start up so by giving this extra distance to the ball that solved the problem.
5:44 PM
Anonymous said...
Got the DVD set and watched Disc 1 three nites in a row and then went and played 9 without hitting a single ball before hand. Hit the last 3 greens in regulation. Watched Disc 1 for the next 2 nites and again did not practice at all before playing 9 holes. The result? 7 out of 7 fairways and 8 out of 9 greens. The swing is an absolute dream come true. Because of work, I never get to hit balls during the week. I just take a 7 iron and take about 10swings in the yard every evening when I get home from work. I also make it a point to watch Disc 1 at least every other night to ingrain the fundamentals and imprint the visuals in my brain. BEWARE! You will pick up 1 to 2 clubs in distance so account for that when it comes to club selection. I recommend starting with 1 club less than you usually use (take a 9 where you usually hit an 8, etc.) This swing is simple, it's long, and deadly accurate. Give it a full month of study and some backyard practice and YOU WILL BE AMAZED!
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
From thesandtrap.com
A Few Months Later: Stack and Tilt
Posted August 1st, 2007 by Erik J. Barzeski
Stack and Tilt: a fad or a little bit closer to a universal golf truth? We'd like your feedback.
Three simple words - Stack and Tilt - have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It's the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It's the move that's led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It's a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It's also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible "traditional swing" pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. "Only a big duffer swings like that!" I thought to myself. I also thought "if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it."
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan's Five Lessons? They don't come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I've developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I've given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I've adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I've adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don't have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don't crush any cans, I don't "pop up," and I don't feel as though I'm leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don't want to get away from the central question: If you've taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How's your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?
TomPosted 22 Aug 2008 at 6:46am #
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i'm hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
-->Richard HPosted 26 Aug 2008 (5 weeks ago) at 8:53pm #
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90's but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR's and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can't wait until Thursday to play again.
-->TomPosted 28 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 4:05pm #
Bill said on August 20, 2008:
I'm a 7 index and I got the DVD's and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
I'm sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !Tom
-->TMPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 12:52pm #
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I've ever seen. Don't get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I'm no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn't apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don't* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don't want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
-->Guy CammorataPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:32pm #
The dvd's are returnable
-->Brian WillsPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:34pm #
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
-->TomPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 6:29am #
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
-->BobPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:19am #
I am in my early 60's. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it's an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives - mostly straight or with a little draw - are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn't getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I'm not a teacher so I can't explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I'd be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
-->RookatPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:58am #
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says "are you still doin Andy Brown"? Usually I'm expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
-->hanonPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:51pm #
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book "Four magic Moves to Winning Golf" (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on "controlled" weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXNglCDcz4
-->JimPosted 04 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 9:32am #
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
-->PerrenPosted 05 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 4:54pm #
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I've seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I've always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high - I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades - I just couldn't get "down" into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a "popping" of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center - not one "miss hit" on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors!
-->EdPosted 08 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 12:56pm #
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you're having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I'm hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have -- beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin -- and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can't use the "textbook" Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep -- and it's not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I'm enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys -- is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball -- and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt...
Posted August 1st, 2007 by Erik J. Barzeski
Stack and Tilt: a fad or a little bit closer to a universal golf truth? We'd like your feedback.
Three simple words - Stack and Tilt - have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It's the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It's the move that's led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It's a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It's also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible "traditional swing" pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. "Only a big duffer swings like that!" I thought to myself. I also thought "if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it."
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan's Five Lessons? They don't come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I've developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I've given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I've adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I've adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don't have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don't crush any cans, I don't "pop up," and I don't feel as though I'm leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don't want to get away from the central question: If you've taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How's your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?
TomPosted 22 Aug 2008 at 6:46am #
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i'm hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
-->Richard HPosted 26 Aug 2008 (5 weeks ago) at 8:53pm #
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90's but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR's and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can't wait until Thursday to play again.
-->TomPosted 28 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 4:05pm #
Bill said on August 20, 2008:
I'm a 7 index and I got the DVD's and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
I'm sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !Tom
-->TMPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 12:52pm #
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I've ever seen. Don't get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I'm no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn't apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don't* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don't want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
-->Guy CammorataPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:32pm #
The dvd's are returnable
-->Brian WillsPosted 29 Aug 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:34pm #
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
-->TomPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 6:29am #
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
-->BobPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:19am #
I am in my early 60's. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it's an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives - mostly straight or with a little draw - are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn't getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I'm not a teacher so I can't explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I'd be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
-->RookatPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 11:58am #
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says "are you still doin Andy Brown"? Usually I'm expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
-->hanonPosted 01 Sep 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 1:51pm #
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book "Four magic Moves to Winning Golf" (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on "controlled" weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXNglCDcz4
-->JimPosted 04 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 9:32am #
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
-->PerrenPosted 05 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 4:54pm #
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I've seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I've always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high - I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades - I just couldn't get "down" into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a "popping" of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center - not one "miss hit" on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors!
-->EdPosted 08 Sep 2008 (3 weeks ago) at 12:56pm #
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you're having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I'm hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have -- beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin -- and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can't use the "textbook" Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep -- and it's not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I'm enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys -- is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball -- and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt...
Monday, September 22, 2008
What do people think about the stack and tilt swing
Pete said:
I have always been a decent golfer, but struggled with a slice most of the time and could never really trust my swing. I’m tall and had a problem getting my weight on my left side during the swing follow-thru. Anyway, read about the S&T swing in golf digest, also viewed some Utube swing sequences of Aaron Baddeley and thought I’d give it a try. I just practiced going thru the motions and swinging without any ball and feels like I’m taking a 3/4 swing.For me the swing has worked out perfect. Now I’m getting thru the swing with my weight on my left side which gives my ball flight a lower and penetrating draw. In 2007 I was able to shoot my best score ever, a 60 and it seemed so effortless. It has improved my whole game and I would recommend this new S&T swing to anyone.
A comment on the WGC-Match Play Championship.Aaron Baddeley matched Tiger Woods shot for shot and had upset in his grasp had he been able to sink a putt. I think Baddeley will keep getting better and be a real threat to Tiger, given more time to fully master this unique swing.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
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Patrick said:
Pete,
Just read your post and my question is, what were you shooting before that 60? If you were anywhere close to that type of number I’m surprised you would have tinkered with such a radical swing change like the S&T. Anyway, congratulations!!!
I am still at the neophyte stage of this swing. Just played my third round of the year and am feeling more confident with it. Two things I am noticing that seem to contradict many others’experience are my distance and ball flight. I am hitting it farther than ever (coming up on my 48th b-day) and higher than ever.This swing seems to allow me to manipulate the clubface more than ever which may explain both. One thing I do seem to have in common is my back doesn’t ache after a round like it used to. A work in progress.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
I continue to be amazed. Thanks for sharing the experiences, guys.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
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Pete said:
My scoring average up to the middle of 2007 was 75 before the S&T swing change. I just could never trust the old traditional swing and that was always was in the back of my mind.
This new ball flight for me is lower and longer with a slight draw. I’m swinging a standard length stiff shaft driver with an 8.5 face. I also have a 9.5 driver for a somewhat higher trajectory. My long irons are crisper with a more boring trajectory, short irons are tight. I’m telling you, this swing has changed my game around, I just can’t believe it happened so quickly.
I love watching Baddeley’s swing in slo-mo and how he pinches the ball.Hey, I’ve only been at this for a year and believe there another 60 in me…somewhere?Just remember to crush the can!
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
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Patrick said:
I can tell I’m new to this swing because I had already forgotten the crucial element of “crushing the can”. So thanks for the reminder. I took that thought to the range today and hit six iron after six iron about 190 yds(I’m at elevation)and I swear they all landed within five feet from each other with perfect trajectory. I love the balance and on top of the ball feeling.
I totally agree about Baddely’s move. It looks effortless, but not in a Couples or Els kind of way. He will win a major soon.
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Pete said:
I will be watching to see how well the pro stack & tilters do this week at the Doral Tournament.
Here’s another swing thought to help master this swing. If your right handed keep your right elbow close to your side on the back & down swing. The right hand and shoulder start down together, caused by the crush the can move. Watch the rear view of Aaron Baddeleys swing on Utube bizhub from the start of the downswing. Centrifigal force takes over to complete the swing. That’s it, just a simple move.
To me Baddeley’s swing tempo seems quicker but more efficient with the shorter backswing, than Els or Couples. Also, I think your right, the S&T is much easier on the back.
Posted on March 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just started experimenting with the S & T and found your website invaluable.
My question revolves around the “crush the can” concept. The photos in the GD article show the ball of the foot crushing down on the can. Yet in the actual swing your left heel is off the ground. Am I missing something?
How about another image or thought for the transition to get the hips moving forward and to stand up straight at impact.
Thanks.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
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Double Eagle said:
Hi Ranger. Glad you found the website useful.
Regarding the issue about crushing the can, if you’re right-handed, your left heel shouldn’t be off the ground once the downswing starts. I think it’s probably OK if it comes up a little bit in the back swing. Once the down swing starts, though, it should be planted flat on the ground.
The feeling I had when I was trying out the swing was that of stomping my foot in to the turf (not lifting it up and then stomping, but just as if I was trying to push my foot down into into the turf).
Have a look at the images of Aaron Baddeley from the original article here. You can see that as the downswing starts, his left knee is flexed, but his foot is flat on the ground. As the swing progresses, his left leg straightens quickly and his hips thrust upward and become level. In all three images there, you can see his left foot squarely on the turf.
An alternative mental image you can use is quickly straightening your left leg as you swing down through the ball (while making sure to thrust your pelvis upward).
I hope that helps. Feel free to stop back and let everyone know how you make out.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
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Patrick said:
I took the S&T to the University of New Mexico Championship Course yesterday (host of this years NCAA Women’s championship in May). They have it in unbelievably good shape and with a 20 m.p.h wind it had teeth. Since I seem to be so early on in my S&T development, I find early in rounds I have trouble trusting this new swing and consequently don’t execute it as described. But after about three holes I start doing it correctly and the results are so good that I only wish I’d known of it twenty years ago. The “rotational” feel of the swing is becoming ingrained and it appears to produce really good club-head speed. Currently my thougt is centered on the pelvic thrust aspect on the through swing. Another big test comes Saturday at Pa-Ko Ridge.
Posted on March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
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Pete said:
On the weight shift and crush the can move. In my swing it feels like the weight goes to the right heel on the back swing. On the forward swing the weight goes to the left heel. It’s a very simple swing, with no lifting of the foot until after the ball is hit.
Posted on March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
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Ranger19 said:
Just returned from a four day trip to Florida where I was able to put the S & T into operational mode.
The results were far better than I had hoped for. I have always been a straight hitter off the tee. Not long but I hit about 70% of my fairways. My problem is that I hit only 40% of the greens. Through a lot of work with my short game I have been able to lower my hndcp to a 5.
My normal swing is laid off resulting in a lot of missed greens left or weak right. I am able to hit a lot of fairways because I use my hands to get the club square at impact.
The S & T has allowed me to finally hit my irons with authority. The first day out I hit over 55% of the greens and shot a 77.
Similar results the next two rounds. My driver and fairway woods remain about the same but clearly my iron play is where I needed improvement.
On my last day I ended up losing the swing a bit. Unless you are a pro, after four straight rounds the swing begins to fray at the edges. I began missing my irons left and then compensated by blocking them right.
When I got home I re-read your site and the Golf Digest articles and quickly realized that I was not straightening out my right leg and was thereby just whipping the club around waist thus leading to hooks or blocks.
Still working on the concept of “crushing the can” but your suggestion about straightening the left leg quickly makes sense.My only problem is I feel that I am already on my left side so how would I push down on the can. Again, maybe you can help me through that process.
I have never been more encouraged about starting the golf season than I am now. I intend to really commit to the S & T for the next month to see if it can continue to improve my iron play.
Your site has been very helpful.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Nice to see you making real progress, Ranger. I’m glad I’ve been able to help in a small way.
As far as the left leg and “can crushing” move, I think the following section of the Golf Digest article is key for you. I know you’ve read it multiple times, but it’s worth keeping in mind:
——-“The turning body is supplying the initial acceleration, so the player must maximize rotational speed. The hips have limited turning capacity when they’re tilted, so they have to come out of their tilt to keep accelerating. The move that releases the hips is a springing up of the lower body, where the butt muscles push the hips upward and toward the target. The player has to feel as if he’s jumping up as the club comes down.
As you start down, imagine you’re crushing a soda can under your left foot. The body has stayed centered on the backswing, so there’s no need to shift back to the ball. This downward pressure on the left foot sets up the upward thrust of the hips through impact.”——-
The part in bold is important. The left leg straightening (or “can crushing” move) is a function of that springing up movement. That’s another great bit of imagery that you can use. You’re not just pressing your foot into the turf for the sake of doing that, you’re doing that so you can engage your butt muscles and propel your hips upward.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
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David said:
Hi guys,
I was an early poster on your first post about S+T ( just after I had my first ever hole in one I think ) so just thought I’d let you know I still find it so easy to swing this way. Sunday I was only able to play 11 holes, very cold, course soaking wet after a downpour so absolutely not an inch of run even on full drives. Hit 8 greens of the first 9 in regulation ! Failed to hole a single birdie putt to the relief of my palying partners ( costs them 2 Euros per birdie ) but that’s another story. S+T still rocks !
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Thanks for giving us an update, David. It’s great to hear from more and more people who have tried the swing for some time and continue to have improved ball striking and consistency.
Now, you just need to get your putting in order to convert some of those birdie chances. At 2 Euro each, you’re going to be making some nice money from your partners.
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
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Bob said:
I have been working at this and have a couple of problems. One is the misses generally go left, I believe this may be caused by not being able to shorten the swing enough. The other is this swing seems to bother my left knee on occassion. Any advice?Thanks,Bob
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Bob, I don’t have any definitive advice to give you, so hopefully some of the other readers will be able to offer some thoughts.
One thing that does come to mind with respect to the knee pain is perhaps a flexibility issue. How is your flexibility in your back and hips? Maybe some tightness is causing a little extra torque on your knee? If you think that might be the culprit, it may help to do some stretching to target those areas. In my sidebar, there are links to the Titleist Performance Institute, Mike Pedersen Golf, and Better Golf With Fitness, all great resources on golf fitness where you can find tons of stretches and exercises to target those areas.
Hopefully someone out there has experience with shots missing left that can offer you some advice. Though, if you do have flexibility issues, that could cause a lot of problems.
All this is speculation, of course, since I haven’t seen your swing. Feel free to go into more detail about your swing and flexibility if you’d like and maybe someone will have some ideas.
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
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Joseph said:
Bob,my left knee bothers me too when I find that it caves in towards the ball on the backswing. If you have the same issue, try flaring your front foot more towards the target at setup. This will fold your front leg and point your knee more on a downward angle rather than towards the ball.
If you notice the pics in the Golf Digest’s article, you will see P&B have a flared foot and the knee is not caved in on their backswing.
Just a thought…
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
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Joseph said:
Bob,One more thought…
Pulling left? For me, I pull left on occasion because my rear shoulder tends to cheat and moves a little forward at setup because I put more weight on the front.
Be sure you are “stacked” over the ball and shoulders squared at setup.
Aloha
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
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Double Eagle said:
Great thoughts, Joseph. Thanks for sharing them.
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
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Joseph said:
Stack and Tilt has a new instructional DVD from P&B. Anyone have feedback on this? I am thinking of purchasing…
thanks
http://www.stackgolf.com/land01.php?sid=51985
Posted on May 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
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hanon said:
Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver:Click here.
Posted on June 5th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I am a 66 year old 8 handicap golfer that changes swing thoughts as often as some people change their underwear. I am tired of that and think I have found what I need with the S&T.
Golf lesson videos through the years show that I have two big swing faults. I raise my head on the backswing and left my hips sway towards the target on the downswing. The S&T easily corrects the head coming up since I feel like my head lowers towards the my left foot on the backswing and the shifting of my left hip towards the target is part of the S&T.
I would like to get a little more distance off the tee with the S&T. (looks like it goes farther when you see it in the air). Maybe when I get my DVD’s that I ordered it will give me some ideas on getting the ball out there a little farther.
The only other problem I encounter on an ongoing basis is trying to hit a 3 wood off the grass. Too often it pops up to the right.
I have also noticed that one cannot get lazy or worn out as the round goes on because if you don’t get those hips thrusted properly and with energy you will leave the shot out to the right.
But overall; I like the fact that I can take this swing to the course and it holds up better under pressure. I think it is because I only need to think about proper body movements and my arms and hands are just along for the ride.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting thoughts, Jim. Thanks for sharing them.
You’re definitely right about getting worn out during a round. With the S&T, I can see it getting worse because of the necessity of a good pelvic thrust. Fatigue certainly hurts players with conventional swings, but I can see the problem with S&T. All the more reason for all of us to get in shape and stay that way!
After you get the S&T DVDs and have a chance to watch them, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. There’s a lot of interest in the swing and players would love to know about them.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 am
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MIKE said:
Great resource. I had never even heard of the stack and tilt until a guy at the golf course asked me how long I had been doing it. I’ve had a lot of swing instruction in conventional swing hooked up to wires and vests, trying to get all the angles to match up with the pros and after a few lessons I would play pretty good until the wheels came off and I wouldn’t be able to hit the ball at all. My “default” swing that I would switch to, was one where my only thought was to stay on my left leg. I tend to get overactive in the lower body and have to flip at the ball to even get the clubhead on the ball. This “dead leg” swing as I think of it ensures consistent contact.
I’m not sure that I am doing everything as advocated by the stack and tilt, but what a relief to find out that what I do naturally is not necessarily a give up swing, but might be a valid way to hit the ball.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
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Double Eagle said:
Jim, glad to see you’re making serious improvement. I can’t wait to hear how the other DVDs are.
Mike, it’s very interesting to hear how you developed a natural stack and tilt. The human body is a wonderful thing. When given a repetitive task, it seems to find interesting ways to accomplish it efficiently. It’s as if you gave your body one parameter - the “dead left leg” and it figured out the rest intuitively over time.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
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MIKE said:
I played a lot of baseball, and I find it interesting to see the baseball swing used as an example of why the stack and tilt is NOT a good swing by some commenters saying that you wouldn’t hit a baseball without a weight transfer. In fact, I was taught to hit to contact off the lead leg with the trail leg almost completely un-weighted when the the swing happens. I find the concept of stack and tilt to be very baseball swing like.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Interesting comparison to baseball, Mike. I haven’t given it much thought, having not played baseball since little league, but I think I understand what you mean. There is definitely something to the rotational power that the stack and tilt and other swings of that type can provide.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
I reviewed the last two DVD’s today and all I can say is “Whew”. I am on sensory overload right now. The “in depth” DVD is just that. It goes into what the hips, legs, arms, hands and shaft do in the S&T system.
I initially liked the S&T because it seemed simple for me to replicate. From reading the articles in Golf Digest I thought that as long as I got the body movements right the arms and hands just came along automatically for the ride. That is true to some extent for the basic movements and one could expect probably play ok with just that knowledge. But in my opinion if you wanted to get into the low single digits than the “in depth DVD” becomes important.
A couple of suprises on that DVD are as follows. No where do they talk about the downswing beginning by pushing down on the right heel and then thrusting up the pelvis. They discuss the importance of pushing the hips continually left (not suddenly) on the downswing and at the same time pushing the hands away from the right shoulder. One of my swing faults is letting my head fall back to the right on my downswing. They advised that is caused by not letting the hands move away from the right shoulder on the downswing as the hips move left. Which, I guess, is why I tend to push many of my shots to the right with the S&T.
I am disappointed that there wasn’t a section on drills to work on the individual components of the S&T. I thought I saw in their literature that it came on the DVD’s.
All in all, I am glad to know more about the S&T and should slowly get better as Iwork on the various components.
If anyone has any questions; I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
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Double Eagle said:
FYI to everyone - I received a press release from Medicus Golf about the widespread release of the Stack and Tilt DVD set. Apparently, it was in limited release before. I wrote a post about it here.
I expect to do a review on the DVD set myself in the near future. In the meantime, anyone who has seen it is welcome to comment as Jim did.
Posted on July 8th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
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Robert Green said:
Hi,
I just stumbled upon this blog and ended up straight at this article. I’ve been wondering about the actual comparisons between the usual swing and the stack and tilt. As you say it is often very hard when watching the pro’s at work, as their is a very fine line between them. I must say, you have done a very good job comparing the two swings above, and I look forward to reading through the rest of your posts.
Rob
Posted on July 10th, 2008 at 6:44 am
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hanon said:
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
Click here.
This second video is dedicated to those saying that this swing doesn´t work without even trying it. The video looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulders around the FIXED SPINE AXIS (keeping the same inclination). This is the key!!
Click here.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
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Double Eagle said:
hanon, that Mike Bennett video is tremendous. Good amount of information from him about the basics of the swing and what’s going on.
Thanks for sharing those.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
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hanon said:
I am cross-linking the three main forums about S&T, one of those is this one. They have more than 100 comments about S&T in each forum and they are still alive after one year with this swing. Therefore I think it could be useful to have all three links together:
Geoff Shackelford
The Sand Trap
Posted on July 17th, 2008 at 7:58 am
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hanon said:
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
Posted on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
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chris said:
hanon, that is a very good question and an observation i have made also. my irons are 2* upright and always have been. the other day while using S&T it just seemed like my hosel kept digging in to the ground first. it only made sense to me that with the flatter swing and more rotational swing that i don’t need the extra upright swing. i got out the lie board and tape and sure enough i was contacting more off the hosel. i took the 2* out and made my irons standard lie. made a big difference.i feel like it is like the golf digest picture and comparison to the football place kicker. one will kick the ball much farther with the rotational speed than linear speed. kicking from an angle as opposed to kicking straight on. same concept applies to the S&T swing. hope that makes sense…if you can, check the lie on your irons…you might be surprised!
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
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David said:
S+T is a one plane rotary swing, during which the shoulders swing quite steeply but the arms are on a much flatter plane - if you’ve watched the dvd’s you will have seen that on the backswing the shaft bisects the right biceps muscle, so it’s well below the shoulder plane.
I have no idea what a flat stance is, but a flat swing plane is essential !
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
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frank m said:
stack an tilt, ok I can see it on iron play hitting down but using the driver with your weight on the front foot how do you get the sweep motion with woods
Posted on July 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
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Jim Marlow said:
You need to shift the weight even more to the left at the start of the downswing and through the downswing. That raises the left hip. These movements shallow the club shaft through the downswing.
Posted on July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
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Steve Hofmann said:
Hello everybody, I have been studying this swing over the last few days. I have tryouts for my high school golf team coming up, and for some reason, after the district tournament last year, I have not been able to get the same consistency I’ve had before. This swing seems to really help with that, and it’s been getting great reviews both here and on other sites I’ve visited. Is this swing really that effective and easy to do consistently. The way I think of it is:
1. Keep everything centered over the ball, weight slightly more on the front food.
2. During takeaway, keep front arm along ribcage and tilt the spine towards the target.
3. As you start the downswing, make a motion like you are crushing a can under your right (for me anyway, I’m a lefty) foot and slide your hips forward.
Is there anything I’m really missing? Also, what are a few things I really NEED to do to hit my driver well with this swing? I’ve heard many different things and just want to know what the best are.
Thank you very much for any help,
Steve
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Steve, I’m about half way through the DVD set and I wanted to point out something. Keep in mind that I tried the swing, but didn’t continue with it (not because I don’t think it’s a good swing - it’s as good as any other and the results people are seeing speak for themselves).
Regarding the takeaway, the spine tilts left, but not really in relation to the target (as I originally thought too). You must remain “stacked” over the ball, and it wouldn’t be possible if you tilted toward the target. However, you will tilt left in relation to your own turning hips and shoulders.
Looking from face on, your centers will be stacked over the ball still, but looking from behind, down the target line, you’re tilted kind of like you were at address, but since your shoulders have turned almost 90 degrees and the hips have turned to some lesser degree, you’re actually tilted to your own left.
But from face on, your shoulder center is over your hip center which is over the ball.
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
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Jim Marlow said:
Steve, I have reviewed the DVD’s many times and failed to find any mention in the “crushing the can feeling with the front leg” to start the downswing. I know it was mentioned in Golf Digest article but maybe they didn’t think that was a good visual after all. They do however the importance of shifting the weight to the lead leg throughout the downswing (not a sudden thrust). That concept has really helped me.Good luck
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
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Double Eagle said:
Jim, I’m through the first two DVDs and you’re right - they definitely don’t refer to the can-crushing move by name. My guess is, it tends to cause a little confusion to players that might not understand the purpose of the analogy. However, watching the first two discs, I think they do a great job of telling us what we need to do to perform the swing successfully.
I think in the context of a relatively short Golf Digest feature, the can-crushing move was a nice bit of imagery. But in the context of a much more in-depth DVD series, it’s not as necessary because the things it accomplishes are covered in great detail.
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I have always been a decent golfer, but struggled with a slice most of the time and could never really trust my swing. I’m tall and had a problem getting my weight on my left side during the swing follow-thru. Anyway, read about the S&T swing in golf digest, also viewed some Utube swing sequences of Aaron Baddeley and thought I’d give it a try. I just practiced going thru the motions and swinging without any ball and feels like I’m taking a 3/4 swing.For me the swing has worked out perfect. Now I’m getting thru the swing with my weight on my left side which gives my ball flight a lower and penetrating draw. In 2007 I was able to shoot my best score ever, a 60 and it seemed so effortless. It has improved my whole game and I would recommend this new S&T swing to anyone.
A comment on the WGC-Match Play Championship.Aaron Baddeley matched Tiger Woods shot for shot and had upset in his grasp had he been able to sink a putt. I think Baddeley will keep getting better and be a real threat to Tiger, given more time to fully master this unique swing.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
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Patrick said:
Pete,
Just read your post and my question is, what were you shooting before that 60? If you were anywhere close to that type of number I’m surprised you would have tinkered with such a radical swing change like the S&T. Anyway, congratulations!!!
I am still at the neophyte stage of this swing. Just played my third round of the year and am feeling more confident with it. Two things I am noticing that seem to contradict many others’experience are my distance and ball flight. I am hitting it farther than ever (coming up on my 48th b-day) and higher than ever.This swing seems to allow me to manipulate the clubface more than ever which may explain both. One thing I do seem to have in common is my back doesn’t ache after a round like it used to. A work in progress.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
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Double Eagle said:
I continue to be amazed. Thanks for sharing the experiences, guys.
Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
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Pete said:
My scoring average up to the middle of 2007 was 75 before the S&T swing change. I just could never trust the old traditional swing and that was always was in the back of my mind.
This new ball flight for me is lower and longer with a slight draw. I’m swinging a standard length stiff shaft driver with an 8.5 face. I also have a 9.5 driver for a somewhat higher trajectory. My long irons are crisper with a more boring trajectory, short irons are tight. I’m telling you, this swing has changed my game around, I just can’t believe it happened so quickly.
I love watching Baddeley’s swing in slo-mo and how he pinches the ball.Hey, I’ve only been at this for a year and believe there another 60 in me…somewhere?Just remember to crush the can!
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
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Patrick said:
I can tell I’m new to this swing because I had already forgotten the crucial element of “crushing the can”. So thanks for the reminder. I took that thought to the range today and hit six iron after six iron about 190 yds(I’m at elevation)and I swear they all landed within five feet from each other with perfect trajectory. I love the balance and on top of the ball feeling.
I totally agree about Baddely’s move. It looks effortless, but not in a Couples or Els kind of way. He will win a major soon.
Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Pete said:
I will be watching to see how well the pro stack & tilters do this week at the Doral Tournament.
Here’s another swing thought to help master this swing. If your right handed keep your right elbow close to your side on the back & down swing. The right hand and shoulder start down together, caused by the crush the can move. Watch the rear view of Aaron Baddeleys swing on Utube bizhub from the start of the downswing. Centrifigal force takes over to complete the swing. That’s it, just a simple move.
To me Baddeley’s swing tempo seems quicker but more efficient with the shorter backswing, than Els or Couples. Also, I think your right, the S&T is much easier on the back.
Posted on March 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am
77
Ranger19 said:
Just started experimenting with the S & T and found your website invaluable.
My question revolves around the “crush the can” concept. The photos in the GD article show the ball of the foot crushing down on the can. Yet in the actual swing your left heel is off the ground. Am I missing something?
How about another image or thought for the transition to get the hips moving forward and to stand up straight at impact.
Thanks.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
78
Double Eagle said:
Hi Ranger. Glad you found the website useful.
Regarding the issue about crushing the can, if you’re right-handed, your left heel shouldn’t be off the ground once the downswing starts. I think it’s probably OK if it comes up a little bit in the back swing. Once the down swing starts, though, it should be planted flat on the ground.
The feeling I had when I was trying out the swing was that of stomping my foot in to the turf (not lifting it up and then stomping, but just as if I was trying to push my foot down into into the turf).
Have a look at the images of Aaron Baddeley from the original article here. You can see that as the downswing starts, his left knee is flexed, but his foot is flat on the ground. As the swing progresses, his left leg straightens quickly and his hips thrust upward and become level. In all three images there, you can see his left foot squarely on the turf.
An alternative mental image you can use is quickly straightening your left leg as you swing down through the ball (while making sure to thrust your pelvis upward).
I hope that helps. Feel free to stop back and let everyone know how you make out.
Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
79
Patrick said:
I took the S&T to the University of New Mexico Championship Course yesterday (host of this years NCAA Women’s championship in May). They have it in unbelievably good shape and with a 20 m.p.h wind it had teeth. Since I seem to be so early on in my S&T development, I find early in rounds I have trouble trusting this new swing and consequently don’t execute it as described. But after about three holes I start doing it correctly and the results are so good that I only wish I’d known of it twenty years ago. The “rotational” feel of the swing is becoming ingrained and it appears to produce really good club-head speed. Currently my thougt is centered on the pelvic thrust aspect on the through swing. Another big test comes Saturday at Pa-Ko Ridge.
Posted on March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
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Pete said:
On the weight shift and crush the can move. In my swing it feels like the weight goes to the right heel on the back swing. On the forward swing the weight goes to the left heel. It’s a very simple swing, with no lifting of the foot until after the ball is hit.
Posted on March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
81
Ranger19 said:
Just returned from a four day trip to Florida where I was able to put the S & T into operational mode.
The results were far better than I had hoped for. I have always been a straight hitter off the tee. Not long but I hit about 70% of my fairways. My problem is that I hit only 40% of the greens. Through a lot of work with my short game I have been able to lower my hndcp to a 5.
My normal swing is laid off resulting in a lot of missed greens left or weak right. I am able to hit a lot of fairways because I use my hands to get the club square at impact.
The S & T has allowed me to finally hit my irons with authority. The first day out I hit over 55% of the greens and shot a 77.
Similar results the next two rounds. My driver and fairway woods remain about the same but clearly my iron play is where I needed improvement.
On my last day I ended up losing the swing a bit. Unless you are a pro, after four straight rounds the swing begins to fray at the edges. I began missing my irons left and then compensated by blocking them right.
When I got home I re-read your site and the Golf Digest articles and quickly realized that I was not straightening out my right leg and was thereby just whipping the club around waist thus leading to hooks or blocks.
Still working on the concept of “crushing the can” but your suggestion about straightening the left leg quickly makes sense.My only problem is I feel that I am already on my left side so how would I push down on the can. Again, maybe you can help me through that process.
I have never been more encouraged about starting the golf season than I am now. I intend to really commit to the S & T for the next month to see if it can continue to improve my iron play.
Your site has been very helpful.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
82
Double Eagle said:
Nice to see you making real progress, Ranger. I’m glad I’ve been able to help in a small way.
As far as the left leg and “can crushing” move, I think the following section of the Golf Digest article is key for you. I know you’ve read it multiple times, but it’s worth keeping in mind:
——-“The turning body is supplying the initial acceleration, so the player must maximize rotational speed. The hips have limited turning capacity when they’re tilted, so they have to come out of their tilt to keep accelerating. The move that releases the hips is a springing up of the lower body, where the butt muscles push the hips upward and toward the target. The player has to feel as if he’s jumping up as the club comes down.
As you start down, imagine you’re crushing a soda can under your left foot. The body has stayed centered on the backswing, so there’s no need to shift back to the ball. This downward pressure on the left foot sets up the upward thrust of the hips through impact.”——-
The part in bold is important. The left leg straightening (or “can crushing” move) is a function of that springing up movement. That’s another great bit of imagery that you can use. You’re not just pressing your foot into the turf for the sake of doing that, you’re doing that so you can engage your butt muscles and propel your hips upward.
Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
83
David said:
Hi guys,
I was an early poster on your first post about S+T ( just after I had my first ever hole in one I think ) so just thought I’d let you know I still find it so easy to swing this way. Sunday I was only able to play 11 holes, very cold, course soaking wet after a downpour so absolutely not an inch of run even on full drives. Hit 8 greens of the first 9 in regulation ! Failed to hole a single birdie putt to the relief of my palying partners ( costs them 2 Euros per birdie ) but that’s another story. S+T still rocks !
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
84
Double Eagle said:
Thanks for giving us an update, David. It’s great to hear from more and more people who have tried the swing for some time and continue to have improved ball striking and consistency.
Now, you just need to get your putting in order to convert some of those birdie chances. At 2 Euro each, you’re going to be making some nice money from your partners.
Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
85
Bob said:
I have been working at this and have a couple of problems. One is the misses generally go left, I believe this may be caused by not being able to shorten the swing enough. The other is this swing seems to bother my left knee on occassion. Any advice?Thanks,Bob
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
86
Double Eagle said:
Bob, I don’t have any definitive advice to give you, so hopefully some of the other readers will be able to offer some thoughts.
One thing that does come to mind with respect to the knee pain is perhaps a flexibility issue. How is your flexibility in your back and hips? Maybe some tightness is causing a little extra torque on your knee? If you think that might be the culprit, it may help to do some stretching to target those areas. In my sidebar, there are links to the Titleist Performance Institute, Mike Pedersen Golf, and Better Golf With Fitness, all great resources on golf fitness where you can find tons of stretches and exercises to target those areas.
Hopefully someone out there has experience with shots missing left that can offer you some advice. Though, if you do have flexibility issues, that could cause a lot of problems.
All this is speculation, of course, since I haven’t seen your swing. Feel free to go into more detail about your swing and flexibility if you’d like and maybe someone will have some ideas.
Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
87
Joseph said:
Bob,my left knee bothers me too when I find that it caves in towards the ball on the backswing. If you have the same issue, try flaring your front foot more towards the target at setup. This will fold your front leg and point your knee more on a downward angle rather than towards the ball.
If you notice the pics in the Golf Digest’s article, you will see P&B have a flared foot and the knee is not caved in on their backswing.
Just a thought…
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
88
Joseph said:
Bob,One more thought…
Pulling left? For me, I pull left on occasion because my rear shoulder tends to cheat and moves a little forward at setup because I put more weight on the front.
Be sure you are “stacked” over the ball and shoulders squared at setup.
Aloha
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
89
Double Eagle said:
Great thoughts, Joseph. Thanks for sharing them.
Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
90
Joseph said:
Stack and Tilt has a new instructional DVD from P&B. Anyone have feedback on this? I am thinking of purchasing…
thanks
http://www.stackgolf.com/land01.php?sid=51985
Posted on May 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
91
hanon said:
Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver:Click here.
Posted on June 5th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
92
Jim Marlow said:
I am a 66 year old 8 handicap golfer that changes swing thoughts as often as some people change their underwear. I am tired of that and think I have found what I need with the S&T.
Golf lesson videos through the years show that I have two big swing faults. I raise my head on the backswing and left my hips sway towards the target on the downswing. The S&T easily corrects the head coming up since I feel like my head lowers towards the my left foot on the backswing and the shifting of my left hip towards the target is part of the S&T.
I would like to get a little more distance off the tee with the S&T. (looks like it goes farther when you see it in the air). Maybe when I get my DVD’s that I ordered it will give me some ideas on getting the ball out there a little farther.
The only other problem I encounter on an ongoing basis is trying to hit a 3 wood off the grass. Too often it pops up to the right.
I have also noticed that one cannot get lazy or worn out as the round goes on because if you don’t get those hips thrusted properly and with energy you will leave the shot out to the right.
But overall; I like the fact that I can take this swing to the course and it holds up better under pressure. I think it is because I only need to think about proper body movements and my arms and hands are just along for the ride.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
93
Double Eagle said:
Interesting thoughts, Jim. Thanks for sharing them.
You’re definitely right about getting worn out during a round. With the S&T, I can see it getting worse because of the necessity of a good pelvic thrust. Fatigue certainly hurts players with conventional swings, but I can see the problem with S&T. All the more reason for all of us to get in shape and stay that way!
After you get the S&T DVDs and have a chance to watch them, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. There’s a lot of interest in the swing and players would love to know about them.
Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
94
Jim Marlow said:
Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 am
95
MIKE said:
Great resource. I had never even heard of the stack and tilt until a guy at the golf course asked me how long I had been doing it. I’ve had a lot of swing instruction in conventional swing hooked up to wires and vests, trying to get all the angles to match up with the pros and after a few lessons I would play pretty good until the wheels came off and I wouldn’t be able to hit the ball at all. My “default” swing that I would switch to, was one where my only thought was to stay on my left leg. I tend to get overactive in the lower body and have to flip at the ball to even get the clubhead on the ball. This “dead leg” swing as I think of it ensures consistent contact.
I’m not sure that I am doing everything as advocated by the stack and tilt, but what a relief to find out that what I do naturally is not necessarily a give up swing, but might be a valid way to hit the ball.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
96
Double Eagle said:
Jim, glad to see you’re making serious improvement. I can’t wait to hear how the other DVDs are.
Mike, it’s very interesting to hear how you developed a natural stack and tilt. The human body is a wonderful thing. When given a repetitive task, it seems to find interesting ways to accomplish it efficiently. It’s as if you gave your body one parameter - the “dead left leg” and it figured out the rest intuitively over time.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
97
MIKE said:
I played a lot of baseball, and I find it interesting to see the baseball swing used as an example of why the stack and tilt is NOT a good swing by some commenters saying that you wouldn’t hit a baseball without a weight transfer. In fact, I was taught to hit to contact off the lead leg with the trail leg almost completely un-weighted when the the swing happens. I find the concept of stack and tilt to be very baseball swing like.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
98
Double Eagle said:
Interesting comparison to baseball, Mike. I haven’t given it much thought, having not played baseball since little league, but I think I understand what you mean. There is definitely something to the rotational power that the stack and tilt and other swings of that type can provide.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
99
Jim Marlow said:
I reviewed the last two DVD’s today and all I can say is “Whew”. I am on sensory overload right now. The “in depth” DVD is just that. It goes into what the hips, legs, arms, hands and shaft do in the S&T system.
I initially liked the S&T because it seemed simple for me to replicate. From reading the articles in Golf Digest I thought that as long as I got the body movements right the arms and hands just came along automatically for the ride. That is true to some extent for the basic movements and one could expect probably play ok with just that knowledge. But in my opinion if you wanted to get into the low single digits than the “in depth DVD” becomes important.
A couple of suprises on that DVD are as follows. No where do they talk about the downswing beginning by pushing down on the right heel and then thrusting up the pelvis. They discuss the importance of pushing the hips continually left (not suddenly) on the downswing and at the same time pushing the hands away from the right shoulder. One of my swing faults is letting my head fall back to the right on my downswing. They advised that is caused by not letting the hands move away from the right shoulder on the downswing as the hips move left. Which, I guess, is why I tend to push many of my shots to the right with the S&T.
I am disappointed that there wasn’t a section on drills to work on the individual components of the S&T. I thought I saw in their literature that it came on the DVD’s.
All in all, I am glad to know more about the S&T and should slowly get better as Iwork on the various components.
If anyone has any questions; I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
100
Double Eagle said:
FYI to everyone - I received a press release from Medicus Golf about the widespread release of the Stack and Tilt DVD set. Apparently, it was in limited release before. I wrote a post about it here.
I expect to do a review on the DVD set myself in the near future. In the meantime, anyone who has seen it is welcome to comment as Jim did.
Posted on July 8th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
101
Robert Green said:
Hi,
I just stumbled upon this blog and ended up straight at this article. I’ve been wondering about the actual comparisons between the usual swing and the stack and tilt. As you say it is often very hard when watching the pro’s at work, as their is a very fine line between them. I must say, you have done a very good job comparing the two swings above, and I look forward to reading through the rest of your posts.
Rob
Posted on July 10th, 2008 at 6:44 am
102
hanon said:
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
Click here.
This second video is dedicated to those saying that this swing doesn´t work without even trying it. The video looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulders around the FIXED SPINE AXIS (keeping the same inclination). This is the key!!
Click here.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
103
Double Eagle said:
hanon, that Mike Bennett video is tremendous. Good amount of information from him about the basics of the swing and what’s going on.
Thanks for sharing those.
Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
104
hanon said:
I am cross-linking the three main forums about S&T, one of those is this one. They have more than 100 comments about S&T in each forum and they are still alive after one year with this swing. Therefore I think it could be useful to have all three links together:
Geoff Shackelford
The Sand Trap
Posted on July 17th, 2008 at 7:58 am
105
hanon said:
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
Posted on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
106
chris said:
hanon, that is a very good question and an observation i have made also. my irons are 2* upright and always have been. the other day while using S&T it just seemed like my hosel kept digging in to the ground first. it only made sense to me that with the flatter swing and more rotational swing that i don’t need the extra upright swing. i got out the lie board and tape and sure enough i was contacting more off the hosel. i took the 2* out and made my irons standard lie. made a big difference.i feel like it is like the golf digest picture and comparison to the football place kicker. one will kick the ball much farther with the rotational speed than linear speed. kicking from an angle as opposed to kicking straight on. same concept applies to the S&T swing. hope that makes sense…if you can, check the lie on your irons…you might be surprised!
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
107
David said:
S+T is a one plane rotary swing, during which the shoulders swing quite steeply but the arms are on a much flatter plane - if you’ve watched the dvd’s you will have seen that on the backswing the shaft bisects the right biceps muscle, so it’s well below the shoulder plane.
I have no idea what a flat stance is, but a flat swing plane is essential !
Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
108
frank m said:
stack an tilt, ok I can see it on iron play hitting down but using the driver with your weight on the front foot how do you get the sweep motion with woods
Posted on July 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
109
Jim Marlow said:
You need to shift the weight even more to the left at the start of the downswing and through the downswing. That raises the left hip. These movements shallow the club shaft through the downswing.
Posted on July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
110
Steve Hofmann said:
Hello everybody, I have been studying this swing over the last few days. I have tryouts for my high school golf team coming up, and for some reason, after the district tournament last year, I have not been able to get the same consistency I’ve had before. This swing seems to really help with that, and it’s been getting great reviews both here and on other sites I’ve visited. Is this swing really that effective and easy to do consistently. The way I think of it is:
1. Keep everything centered over the ball, weight slightly more on the front food.
2. During takeaway, keep front arm along ribcage and tilt the spine towards the target.
3. As you start the downswing, make a motion like you are crushing a can under your right (for me anyway, I’m a lefty) foot and slide your hips forward.
Is there anything I’m really missing? Also, what are a few things I really NEED to do to hit my driver well with this swing? I’ve heard many different things and just want to know what the best are.
Thank you very much for any help,
Steve
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
111
Double Eagle said:
Steve, I’m about half way through the DVD set and I wanted to point out something. Keep in mind that I tried the swing, but didn’t continue with it (not because I don’t think it’s a good swing - it’s as good as any other and the results people are seeing speak for themselves).
Regarding the takeaway, the spine tilts left, but not really in relation to the target (as I originally thought too). You must remain “stacked” over the ball, and it wouldn’t be possible if you tilted toward the target. However, you will tilt left in relation to your own turning hips and shoulders.
Looking from face on, your centers will be stacked over the ball still, but looking from behind, down the target line, you’re tilted kind of like you were at address, but since your shoulders have turned almost 90 degrees and the hips have turned to some lesser degree, you’re actually tilted to your own left.
But from face on, your shoulder center is over your hip center which is over the ball.
Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
112
Jim Marlow said:
Steve, I have reviewed the DVD’s many times and failed to find any mention in the “crushing the can feeling with the front leg” to start the downswing. I know it was mentioned in Golf Digest article but maybe they didn’t think that was a good visual after all. They do however the importance of shifting the weight to the lead leg throughout the downswing (not a sudden thrust). That concept has really helped me.Good luck
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
113
Double Eagle said:
Jim, I’m through the first two DVDs and you’re right - they definitely don’t refer to the can-crushing move by name. My guess is, it tends to cause a little confusion to players that might not understand the purpose of the analogy. However, watching the first two discs, I think they do a great job of telling us what we need to do to perform the swing successfully.
I think in the context of a relatively short Golf Digest feature, the can-crushing move was a nice bit of imagery. But in the context of a much more in-depth DVD series, it’s not as necessary because the things it accomplishes are covered in great detail.
Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
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